canada discussion

[T.rex]

I don't seee why Canada should'nt be in the game and as someone already pointed out we did have some of the finest troops during WWI and WWII. Remember, they didn't call us the "Crazy Canucks" for nothing!

Hell, even the Germans respected us!

 

[rabidveggie]

If by sweet at ice hockey you mean bronze then you're right. Canada beats Sweden 9 times out of 10. As for leaders I put forward Lester Pearson who stopped a potential war with Russia and put forward the whole idea of the UN army. Trudeau would be a possible choice, when you meet him he could give you the Trudeau salute. (You Canadians might know what I'm talking about) William Lyon Mackenzie could also work he was Prime Minister during WWII and kept the nation together through conscription even Quebec and held Scions with his dogs, wife, and Wilfred Laurie. To all you neh sayers out their I have two words for you just two words... Come on.

 

[Steve the Noble]

Ignoring the dictionary definition of civilization, I don't consider Canada to be one. It doesn't feel right with a 4000BC start.

I think a Native civilization does work though; as the Iroquis have been in other versions of Civ.

 

[S.P.Q.R]

Hmmm, fundamentally, wasn't america another british colony in the beginning?
so the colony argument probably won't stand.
although i am a canadian and would LOVE to see a canadian empire on BTS... objectively i think there are civs with more history and distinction from the existing ones in the game and canada would probably not make it just because it lacks diversity per se.
however, if BTS is primarily focused on post-modern era, then canada may have a chance. but please wait until the next election to select the leader; i can't bear to play as stephen harper without the facist tech.

To all rules there are exceptions. The Us is an exception to this rule because of its power on the international stage in the last 100 years.

 

[Rancid Sushi]

To all you guys aguing about WMDs: take a drink from the Tigris river and then tell me Saddam never had them. Don't blame the US for acting rashly either. Even Saddam's own generals thought they had WMDs and wanted to use them should US troops invade. I heard they were quite shocked and disappointed when Saddam told them that they didn't have the weapons.

 

[rabidveggie]

Where'd you here that Sushi? Anyways UN inspectors repeatedly told the US that there were no weapons George Bush just wanted to finish his daddy's work while grabbing some Oil. Anyway this topic kind of went of topic, I'm guilty as anyone else of this so from now on I'll ignore all American arguments and stick to why Canada should be in the game.

 

[Ruberkaiser]

If I may, I'd like to use a real-world argument I heard a few months back from a historian on CSPAN re: why America and Canada are viewed differently in terms of impact on the world. I think it implies well to Civilization too. This isn't an anti-Canada post, but rather an explanation of why two seemingly similar nations are not judged the same in regards to the history of civilization. I apologize in advance for the paraphrasing, but this was the gist the argument:

America is influential on the world's historical stage because it was able to forge a unique and (at the time) innovative cultural identity that Canada could not. World history has a good idea of what it is to be "American" or to have the "American dream": a nation built upon the idea of democratic innovation, multiculturalism, and the desire to rise from an impoverished immigrant to a prosperous "American." While Canada also holds the ideals, they never capitalized on them culturally, as America did. They never encapusated a "Canadian dream" or shown the world what it is to be a "Canadian."

Basically, although America's sister colonies of Canada and Australia went on to become great countries, they have not had the impact on general civilization as America has. I think when Firaxis decides which civs to include in the game, one of the major criteria that they consider is the civ's impact on civilization as a whole, and how history changed because of them (good or bad). Canada is just not there yet.

I agree with you entirely that the USA has earnt its place in Civ IV...but the American dream? Seriously...what are you talking about? I get that you love to talk about it a great deal, as well as your democracy (which is based heavily on the Roman model), but your cultural influence on the world strays little further than hamburgers and bad tv shows (which I enjoy thoroughly regardless) and a few really annoying lingual habits.

Face it...America is in the game because Truman dropped nukes on Hiroshima and Nagosaki, and because most people on the face of this earth have a big yellow "m" burnt into their retinas, not because the rest of the world aspires to the American Dream (although it is something that you are by all means are entitled to believe in yourself).

I'm an Aussie, and although the rest of the world thinks "culture" and "Australia" are mutually exclusive terms, many of us do not. Where you have the American Dream, we have "the land of the fair go". We believe in mateship, that is sticking up for the man or woman beside you, for no reason more than that they are your countrymen. Our troops were fighting in South Africa when we became a nation over 100 years ago, and served in both world wars, vietnam and the two gulf wars, and that is to name only those instances in which you would percieve as important...we have many others.

Australia is not unique. Canada and every nation and aspiring nation around the world has an identity, a common belief. Nations cannot exist without such a concept of self identity. All people in the world can aspire to freedom and justice without sharing the American Dream, which is just a label or patent slapped onto an idea that has followed humanity since its inception.

Should Australia and Canada be in Civ IV? No. But seriously, as an individual...get over yourself.

 

[silver 2039]

Canada isn't a civllization.

Furthermore we need countries liek Khmers, Abyssina, Iroquois and Zulu or Bantu not Canada. Heh Canadia...

 

[Yakk]

If Canada should be in BTS, so should Poland!

 

[flyingchicken]

Canada, a civ? When Canada has proven itself to be extraordinarily culturally distant from it's originator, sure, why not.

American culture (defined loosely as "way of life") is far different from British (the colonial power of so long ago) culture, and has a a lot of definitive qualities (the hamburger, TV, style in world politics, accent, the highly diversified society).

So, when Canada reaches a point where you can point out as many differences between Britain and Canada as much as in when you point out differences between Britain and America, then it is a Civ. Highly relative, but hey.

As for Poland, I think I'd just bundle it as a German-Russian cultural mix (hey, don't kill me), therefore not a civilization, just a state. The game's not based on the European Wars.

 

[Yakk]

Canada, a civ? When Canada has proven itself to be extraordinarily culturally distant from it's originator, sure, why not.

American culture (defined loosely as "way of life") is far different from British (the colonial power of so long ago) culture, and has a a lot of definitive qualities (the hamburger, TV, style in world politics, accent, the highly diversified society).

So, when Canada reaches a point where you can point out as many differences between Britain and Canada as much as in when you point out differences between Britain and America, then it is a Civ. Highly relative, but hey.

Um, where did you get the idea that Britian is hugely similar to Canada. I'm sort of puzzled.

Heck, Quebec alone is more different than Britian than the USA is culturally, and it is only 1/4 of Canada.

And any claim that Quebec is more similar to France than USA is to Britian will be summarially laughed at.

 

[flyingchicken]

My Age of Imperialism history's a little rusty, gimme a break.

France to Canada as Britain is to America.

Addendum:
Give France-Canada examples and show their Britain-America counterparts to show how they compare. All for the sake of making a convincing stand that Canada qualifies as a Civ that's very culturally distinct.

 

[Penalty]

Lmfao, are you really trying to say Canada is the same as Britain or France? Are you kidding? (we're way better ) We are completely different than both. If you're trying to compare us to America sure, but if you're trying to say we're the same as England or France.. just no. xD

 

[Saim]

Lmfao, are you really trying to say Canada is the same as Britain or France? Are you kidding? (we're way better ) We are completely different than both. If you're trying to compare us to America sure, but if you're trying to say we're the same as England or France.. just no. xD

Flyingchicken asked you a question. You didn't answer it. Looks like you're traying to change the subject.

 

[flyingchicken]

Flyingchicken asked you a question. You didn't answer it. Looks like you're traying to change the subject.

Pay attention, youngster. I wasn't asking Penalty anything.

Come on, a merry smile and a "don't take these things too seriously it's just a game discussion after all" attitude from all now.

 

[Saim]

I don't know what you mean "I wasn't asking Penalty anything" but... ok...

Anyway, it's just annoying to see people make claims and not back it up and expect to get somewhere.

 

[Yakk]

My Age of Imperialism history's a little rusty, gimme a break.

France to Canada as Britain is to America.

Addendum:
Give France-Canada examples and show their Britain-America counterparts to show how they compare. All for the sake of making a convincing stand that Canada qualifies as a Civ that's very culturally distinct.

Quebec-France: difficulty understanding each other due to centuries of language drift.

Quebec was strongly catholic until 1 to 2 generations ago, then the quiet revolution took off.

France was one of the first secular states in the world. The French revolution was quite anti-religious.

Quebec was conquored and govorned by the British, and became one of the founding provinces of the nation of Canada. It still speaks a dialect of French (Quebecois), and uses a napoleonic civil code (same as France), but it has a common law criminal code in common with the rest of Canada.

America-Britian: Both are naval-power based imperial nations. Both are prodistant, with recent acceptance of Catholics as an acceptable religion in recent (post-WW2) history.

For a short period the two nations where rivals (between independence and WWI). Local dialects exist in both.

Overall, if you created the "Anglo-Saxon" civilization, it would cover both UK and America quite acceptably.

...

The reason I see that America deserves a civilization is:
1> Lots of customers.
2> "World powers" get a civilization for each era.

However, given a reasonable time distance, I'd expect the British/America era to be viewed like much the Eastern/Western roman empire: a schism in the imperial period, rather than a brand new civilization.

 

[coffeeholic]

my 2 cents:

I agree that from a civ philosophical perspective Canada probably does not qualify. On the other hand if it will help sell more copies of Civ then I think we should have a civ. Firaxis should look at their sales and see if it would make sense to add a Canada Civ. I like reading posts from people in countries that are notorious for software piracy arguing against this, we buy software and for that we should get a civ. Who cares if it is not historically accurate or not, face it there are lots of civs that were not around in 4000BC.

Anyways we'll see what happens.

On the America WMD discussion I have a few short words: Iran, North Korea. If they invade Iraq for WMDs then they should invade the 2 above nations. Might as well spend the 21st century fighting unwinable wars eh America??

AJK

 

[flyingchicken]

The problem with the Civ series is that it treats "civilizations" as "states." Now that is just plain wrong.

 

[Pangur Bán]

The problem with the Civ series is that it treats "civilizations" as "states." Now that is just plain wrong.

Yeah, and it's getting worse with each version of the franchise. Look at how Kiev has been unceremoniously dumped from the Russian city list, even though it is the mother city of all the Russias, and was in the the state ruled by all three Russian rulers in the game. The ancient Russian civ of previous games has suddenly become the Russian Federation.

Germany also includes cities mainly from the Federal Republic of Germany or 19th century Prussia, the former being a state little over a decade old, ignoring great historic German cities such as Vienna just because its not in the current political state which calls itself "Germany".

And lol, one civ is named after a dynasty (Ottoman Dynasty), rather than a civilization.