Cargo ship food vs Hanging Gardens

[joncnunn]

No, Hanging Gardens doesn't need a buff.
Instead, cargo ships, particularly early game internal routes need a nerf.

 

[ColdPhoenix]

I haven't tried the food trade yet but had assumed they had a corresponding reduction in food from the originating city. Does this not happen then?

 

[True_Candyman]

I haven't tried the food trade yet but had assumed they had a corresponding reduction in food from the originating city. Does this not happen then?

Nope, you just add food to the city the trade route is headed to. No detriment.

 

[ColdPhoenix]

Nope, you just add food to the city the trade route is headed to. No detriment.

Thanks. I'd assumed it would be too powerful for them to work that way. Better start using them then!

 

[dexters]

Do you still bother to build HG in higher difficulties since cargo ship gives you more food with less hammer to build?

HG cost u 150 (gives you 6 ) meanwhile
Cargo only cost u 100 (gives you up to 12 )

I think HG need some kind of buff, what you all think?

No the true cost of Cargo is 100 plus the opportunity cost of having 1 less international trade route.

Which could easily be 15-20+ GPT and 1~10 bpt if you're playing on higher difficulty and relying on the trade routes to gain research.

That's a huge unstated cost

 

[True_Candyman]

No the true cost of Cargo is 100 plus the opportunity cost of having 1 less international trade route.

Which could easily be 15-20+ GPT and 1~10 bpt if you're playing on higher difficulty and relying on the trade routes to gain research.

That's a huge unstated cost

If we get into the opportunity cost we're going to be in a never ending loop of "what about this!" Early game, that opportunity cost is the same as the opportunity cost of building the hanging gardens. Long term that lack of gold etc may start to impact but by that point it's much less significant. Plain and simple, building anything early game other than a caravan for gold trade is gunna have a caravan for gold trade as its opportunity cost. And this goes for everything else as well.

 

[feralminded]

If we get into the opportunity cost we're going to be in a never ending loop of "what about this!" Early game, that opportunity cost is the same as the opportunity cost of building the hanging gardens. Long term that lack of gold etc may start to impact but by that point it's much less significant. Plain and simple, building anything early game other than a caravan for gold trade is gunna have a caravan for gold trade as its opportunity cost. And this goes for everything else as well.

And that's the point. You can't directly compare an internal trade route to a hanging gardens without adding to the cost of the internal trade route how much / per turn you are losing. Ultimately hanging gardens is still strictly superior once you factor this in as it costs you only once and never has any more long-term cost. Essentially that internal trade route is costing orders of magnitude more over the course of the game.

 

[Roxlimn]

If we get into the opportunity cost we're going to be in a never ending loop of "what about this!" Early game, that opportunity cost is the same as the opportunity cost of building the hanging gardens. Long term that lack of gold etc may start to impact but by that point it's much less significant. Plain and simple, building anything early game other than a caravan for gold trade is gunna have a caravan for gold trade as its opportunity cost. And this goes for everything else as well.

It's not a nebulous opportunity cost with vague and different results in the general way that opportunity cost for hammers goes. In fact, it's an ongoing and continuing cost which is why I rated Maritime Alliance as worth two Trade Routes in gold and such.

Every cycle you devote Caravans into internal, you're losing immediate GPT - GPT you could have had the turn after and which you're continuing to pay every time you assign the route. This GPT is not extraneous GPT. This was gold that in the past went into the rivers your cities were working.

The opportunity cost is not precisely the same, because after you build the HG, you can still build a Caravan! You can't build another Caravan when your routes are maxxed. You will need additional tech. In that sense, building HG is like getting an extra Food Caravan route. That's worth a wonder - Colossus and Petra are immediate comparisons.

 

[dexters]

If we get into the opportunity cost we're going to be in a never ending loop of "what about this!" Early game, that opportunity cost is the same as the opportunity cost of building the hanging gardens. Long term that lack of gold etc may start to impact but by that point it's much less significant. Plain and simple, building anything early game other than a caravan for gold trade is gunna have a caravan for gold trade as its opportunity cost. And this goes for everything else as well.

The true cost of a food carrying trade route is not just the hammer cost of the unit, it's the cost of the trade route *international* you otherwise would have had with it.

Here's a good explanation of the concept



Cargo Ships are situational too as you may not start near coast or have 2 cities settled on a coast for that exchange to occur.

They are also prone to be pillaged. Playing as Venice, I have replaced my food ship 2-3x through the game. So in hammer terms its not just the cost of the original unit but all the units you have to build to replace it.

The barb ships will sometimes get you in the gaps on the map where you have no LoS. And before you ask, yes I have a navy and the sea route is even relatively short hop accross water, but my cities are on the coast of a large inland seaway with lots of unsettled tundra and ice for barb camps to fester. So even the cost of the navy is an extra cost. Even if the food route is just one of many, you still have to amortize a part of that cost for your food cargo ships.

Contrast this to The Hanging Gardens wonder, which is inside your city and safe for the entire game and can be built anywhere.

Now, I'm not saying the wonder couldn't use a boost, perhaps even have its bonuses scale slightly until the Renaissance. But It's certainly not as broken as OP implied.

 

[Peng Qi]

Hanging Gardens doesn't cost you 25 gold per turn.