Categories?

[Plotinus]

I would leave models out of it, to be honest. Partly because the Paperdoll couldn't possibly lose, having been by far the most widely used and invaluable one, and partly because it can be hard to judge whether someone's model is really theirs or not. E.g. my Cthulhu unit used a model that I basically homebrewed by mixing bits of many figures and props made by other people (the base figure is Apollo Maximus) - does that count as my model or not? I don't know. Best restrict the categories to the actual finished products (plus utilities).

 

[Balthasar]

I would leave models out of it, to be honest. Partly because the Paperdoll couldn't possibly lose, having been by far the most widely used and invaluable one, and partly because it can be hard to judge whether someone's model is really theirs or not. E.g. my Cthulhu unit used a model that I basically homebrewed by mixing bits of many figures and props made by other people (the base figure is Apollo Maximus) - does that count as my model or not? I don't know. Best restrict the categories to the actual finished products (plus utilities).

I agree. It's off my list.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Moderator Action: Posts discussing nomination process & limitations moved. This thread is strictly to discuss categories.

It's alright to mention specific examples to make a point, such as the paperdoll in reference to 3D models, but this is neither the time nor the place to make nominations or discuss the relative merits of various creations.

 

[Steph]

For your scenarios, you have different time periods.
I think you should have a category for "epic scenario" spanning several periods. I don't believe it should have to go to "others".

And do we make a disctinction between a scenario with a designed map, or a mod with a random map?

 

[Blue Monkey]

Maybe maps (without other scenario elements) should be its own category?

 

[Kyriakos]

Yes, Maps have already been proposed as a category of its own.

Besides, there is a ton of maps around.

If they need to have multiple categories then i suggest we stick to historic/fantasy.

 

[Steph]

I'm not speaking about the maps itself.
But of a scenario including a map (ex: NApoleonic wars), vs an epic game without map (random).

They require different design methods, give different gameplay experience

 

[Blue Monkey]

• Maps
• Scenarios with Maps
• Scenarios with Random Maps

All three suggestions have merit.

At the same time we don't want so many categories that things become confusing & diluted. This is the situation for all the suggestions so far - not just scenarios. Kyriakos has rightly suggested that we move on to structuring the polls before too much longer. Is it agreeable to let this initial discussion run until about June 25th (a week and a half from the opening post) then poll on which should be included?

 

[Blue Monkey]

Balthasar - please add these suggested unit categories to the OP:

Conversions
Character units
Multi-units

 

[Balthasar]

For your scenarios, you have different time periods.
I think you should have a category for "epic scenario" spanning several periods. I don't believe it should have to go to "others".

Great point, Steph. I agree that Epic Mods should be a category. Georgestow suggested that back at post 14, and I agreed then.

And do we make a distinction between a scenario with a designed map, or a mod with a random map?

Until we get better definitions, how about these:

Mod(pack) = rule changes, maybe graphics changes, random map.
Epic Mod = Mod with long games on large maps.

Graphics Mod = no rule changes, graphics changes, random map

Scenario = rule changes, maybe graphics changes, specific map.

Map = no rule changes, maybe graphics changes, specific map*.

*By these definitions, my Manhattan Terrain and Old West Map files are not Maps, but rather Scenarios, since some rules changes were made to accommodate the changed terrains.

Balthasar - please add these suggested unit categories to the OP:

Conversions
Character units
Multi-units

Multi-units is already a category. I'm in the process of working many of the suggestions into the master list: I'll add these.

 

[Kyriakos]

An idea which could help determine in a quicker and more disciplined manner which categories there will be is to allow the existence of a category only if there is a sufficient number of creations=creators for it. Lets say 10, as an example. This will disallow contests being fought between few people, something which won't look good in my view.
But apart from that there has to be some logic involved in choosing the categories, and not allow them to increase near-infinitely.

EDIT:

And yet another, simpler idea is to have as many (and the same) categories as there are in the database. This would solve a lot of things indeed. Then you could just add to those whatever decade achievement contest there will be.

 

[Kyriakos]

I just checked the database and there are 9 categories of pcx gfx, but the last one (3d models) is not good for a contest. 8 categories are still enough, and along with the decade achievement they become 9, and can be broken up to 3 contests per month, if the idea of having the fest span three months is put to use

 

[Blue Monkey]

We can begin work immediately on what will be a multi-month grind with a huge number of categories. Or we can take an approach that showcases our creativity in a way not seen before that also allows us to stay relaxed while preparing & putting on the show. The trick is to aim for the latter while including the things that are important to people that seem like they require the slog of the first way. IMHO we’ve all got to compromise a little on the details. I’ve tried to read carefully what everyone has posted, and synthesize it to clarify what we need to do and what we want the outcome to be.

Critical Path
We need to accomplish these tasks between now & when the outcome of the final award is given:

1. Decide Mechanics
2. Decide Categories
3. Suggest then formally Nominate
4. Create Public Polls of Manageable Size

• Design
• Set-up and Post Each

5. Set-up Awards

• Design Art
• Prepare Threads / Posts
• Edit & Post after polls close

So how long will it take us to accomplish all that?

 

[Blue Monkey]

Timeline Calculation

The following outline is just to demonstrate the timeline in concrete terms. The numbers are just for illustration - to make clear the decisions we need to make and how long we have to make them. Work through to the end of the logic and you’ll see the point - regardless of the exact numbers we’ll end up working with.

In one case about 15 categories have been proposed. In another 50+. Strictly for purposes of laying out the issues we’ll assume 36 categories will be used. It’s an arbitrary number - close to the average of those two proposals, but slightly favoring the lower.

The next step is to estimate the time needed to accomplish everything along the critical path back. Starting from the end since October 30th is the only fixed time we know of at this point.

• The awards presentation should probably be done as one announcement on the front page. Allow 1 week to prepare and post that after the polls close. 1 Week
• Posting 36 polls simultaneously will overwhelm everyone. dividing it into groups of 6 simultaneous polls is balanced & manageable both as pollsters and participants.
• That means we’ll do 6 sets of awards polls. Introducing those awards polls a week apart means 6 weeks.
• The last will close 7 weeks from the start. If we want two weeks of voting the polls can remain open with staggered starts still a week apart- hope that’s clear without a diagram. 1 + 7 = 8 Weeks
• Assuming the later polls can be constructed while the first is going on we’ll still need time to make & post the first. 8 + 1 = 9 weeks.
• Before the awards polls can be made & posted the nomination lists have to be made. In effect this is also a set of polls on the same categories. Again 7 weeks - assuming only one round is needed in each category. 9 + 7 = 16 weeks at this point.
• Before we can do nominations we have to agree on categories, and make the nominations. Say another week or two to get consensus on categories - which will probably involve a one week poll if there is not clear consensus. Add 2 weeks to actually make nominations. 16 + 3 = 19 weeks.
• There is certain to be further time needed for various discussions & logistics. Say another week total. 19 + 1 = 20 weeks.

20 weeks assuming things go smoothly & there are no detours or long debates along the way. Also that other things like awards art can be completely accomplished without taking any additional time.

There are 18 weeks between now & October 31st. If we want the awards to be announced soon after that date - rather than wrapping up the polls around the new year - we would have to decide on categories & make nominations almost immediately. And completely stress ourselves out to do everything that follows before the deadline. Several of us would have to divert the majority of our available time to making this work. All of us would have to do everything possible to ensure that the entire process flows perfectly.



What alternative do we have to this Sisyphean task?

 

[Blue Monkey]

What Are We Celebrating?

It’s clear from this that having a celebration with a large number of polls is unrealistic given the timeframe. If nothing else it will exhaust us to the point that we won’t enjoy the celebration we are making. Let’s back away enough to get some perspective on our primary goal.

We want to celebrate the game we love. We’ve expressed our passion for it through adding an enormous amount of creative content as well as making tools and showing others how to use them. We’ve enhanced the range of what can be done by delving into the code & finding things like “charm” and the unimplemented terrain types. We’re all virtuosos at one or more aspects of this process.

IMHO our celebration should showcase us as a vibrant community. Making a much larger and more complex version of the monthly polls doesn’t seem like the best way to accomplish that. We can certainly recognize those creations that did well in the polls over the years. Including an honor roll with images and links in one of the celebratory announcements will accomplish that without the need for further polling.

OTOH we should take the time to honor the things we have created that didn’t fit into the monthly polls. And look at everything created from a different perspective. One that will be refreshing & enjoyable for those of us that will be contributing the sweat equity to the celebration as well as the larger C&C community & CFC as a whole. Let’s have a nominations & awards process. But let’s keep the focus on fewer categories. Ones that recognize the overlooked and get us to look at the well-loved & respected offerings in a fresh light.

So how do we do that & enjoy the process?

 

[Blue Monkey]

A Different Kind of Awards

Here is a suggestion for possible ways to organize the recognition of our communal creativity:

• World Building - scenarios & mods
• Terraforming - terrain & related work
• Rose-Colored Glasses - interfaces, space race graphics, anything else that affects the look and feel of the game itself
• Many Hands, Light Work - anything done through the effort of multiple people
• Magnificent Obsession - whether it’s sustained production of a particular type, slogging on year after year to perfect a scenario / mod, or some other type of persistent work towards a creative goal
• Flights of Fancy - the strange unit that’s makes you want to create a scenario around it, the scenario that practically turns C3 into another kind of game, etc., etc.
• Theme Park Wizards - work united in theme & purpose, produced solo or by several different people in loose collaboration. Examples: the community terrain pack assembled by Ares, the steampunk units, historical unit sets ... Note that the nominees may have been created over a long time frame or produced in waves rather than as one giant pack.
• Swiss Army Knife - things like revelatory tutorials, utilities, etc. that have made many other creators’ work far easier & have extended what we can do with a 10 year old game engine
• Clever Hacks - whatever has been done that gets the game to exceed its design specifications. Exploiting the “submarine bug”, finding ways to get the appearance of land transport, delving into the code & coming up with “teleportation” etc.

These purposely cut across the kind of categories suggested by the database & the monthly polls. The intent is to create a very few categories that will cover all the types of creative endeavours we indulge in. And get all of us to look at things in a completely different way. Unified in artistry & virtuosity rather than divided by imposed functional categories. A presentation which by nomination already shows exceptional creative virtuosity over and above the skill of a particular craft.

We can add a couple of distinct “awards” to complete the recognition of ourselves as a community. While the above awards are for the creations these two could be used to recognize either exceptional creations or exceptional contributors to the community:

• Special Jury Award - let’s surprise ourselves. After the other nominations have gelled into polls let’s take a couple of weeks or so to suggest anything or anyone not covered in the above. Then do the voting via pm to a designated moderator - who is recused from being nominated. When the awards are announced we’ll all be surprised. This could even be presented as an unranked “top ten” showcasing our depth and diversity.
• Trailblazers & Publicans - not a poll, but a “hall of fame” for those who were first to do something, those who are no longer with us, and those who have worked behind the scenes to aid the creators but have not been acknowledged in an obvious public way. The list can be long or short & will be unranked.

10 - 12 categories is manageable when it comes to the public awards poll. It can be posted in one or two sessions. And that much can be created & posted in less than a month. There will be more suggestions for nominations because of the nature of the categories, but we are also granting ourselves plenty of time for discussion on the merits and more than one round of decision making to come up with the nominations list for the public polls.

Something along these lines gives us until the end of July to fine tune the range of awards. Take until the middle of September to winnow down the nominees to what can be accommodated in each poll. That gives us a relaxed month create polished announcements and polling threads. Capped off by two weeks of voting. With awards announced on the anniversary itself. Congratulatory and discussion / reminiscence threads can carry the celebration into November.

If we don’t do something like this approach we’re going get bogged down and not reach our goal, imho. I've done my best to incorporate the ideas and concerns everyone has expressed. Hopefully this is suggestive of a way we can all live with - after some minor adjustments - and get on to the practicalities.

 

[Balthasar]

Here's how I'd do it, if I were god-like:

1. July 5-25 Nominations for Graphics, Terrain, Interfaces, Leaderheads, Maps, Sounds

OP of nominating thread has Category list; voters can make five nominations each, chosen from any of those categories. Members may nominate their own work.​

[repeats]

2. July 25-30 Nominations tallied, poll posts created. [repeats]

2. Aug 1-25 Graphics Polls, Nominations for Units Poll

Polls: separate poll for Top 10 nominations in each category. [repeats]
Units nominations: I suggest adding unit superlative categories for WWI, WW2, Planes, Ships, Starships, Beasts, and Collections.​

3. Sept. 1-25 Units Polls, nominations for Mods and Scenarios.

I'd divide Mods into Historic, Fantasy and Unusual categories.​

4. Oct. 1-30 Mod / Scenario of the Decade Poll

Poll closes Halloween Eve.​

EDIT: Didn't see Blue Monkey's last three posts (that's how long I take to type these), so I have to look at that yet, but overall, if it's too complicated to fit on a napkin, it's probably more than you want to do.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Here's how I'd do it, if I were god-like:

Glad that you're thinking in terms of a timeline. OTOh I'm not clear on how many categories - one per poll - you've got there.

EDIT: Didn't see Blue Monkey's last three posts (that's how long I take to type these), so I have to look at that yet, but overall, if it's too complicated to fit on a napkin, it's probably more than you want to do.

The "napkin" is pretty much the bolded words & the descriptive sentence. The rest is just explanation of how I came to those conclusions - the conversation over the napkin if you will.

Executive summary: Anything more than about 10 categories will stress our resources to the breaking point. Show our creativity via categories that are far different than the db / monthlies. Proposal based on contemplation of my sense of what people fundamentally want that is also achievable. See bolded list for solution that can be done in the given time while letting everyone continue to carry on more or less as usual.

 

[Blue Monkey]

I forgot to include the "themed creations" category mentioned in the other thread. I'm editing it in.

 

[Balthasar]

Here's my version of your list, Blue, with 24 Categories (8 contests per month).
I'm trying here to preserve categories for creators with specialties:

Terraforming Award: Best Terrain
Best In-game Graphic Creation
Best Map
Interface Graphic Award
Best Leaderhead
Scholar's Award: Best Tutorial
Best Utility

Best Historic Mod/Scenario
Best Historic Unit: Foot unit
Best Historic Unit: Mechanical unit

Best Fantasy Mod/Scenario
Best Fantasy Unit

Best Sci-Fi Mod/Scenario
Best Sci-Fi Unit

Unusual Unit Award

Best Collaboration
Best Converted Unit
Best Multiple Unit
Best Themed Unit Collection

Best Overall Mod Decade Award
Best Graphic Decade Award
Best Unit Decade Award
Jury Award(s)
Pioneer Award