How many techs can a civ start with? If you're going back to 6000 BC, then I would like to see everyone start with fire and cooking, and then maybe one other tech. I would also like to see a way for certain civilizations to get the religions that they founded. For example, the Celts should really be the first to discover Druidism (if it gets put back in the mod) and have a crack at building Stonehenge. Or India to be the first to develop Hinduism.
Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)
- Thread starter strategyonly
- Start date
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
If everyone starts with a tech then what is the point of having the tech in the tree?
If you are playing on an earth map with nations starting about where they did it would be sensible to try and have the religions founded by the nation that did historically but it makes no sence for Egypt to create a religion based on monsoonal flooding of a river when they are in the tundra without a river in sight. My opinion only
.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
I honestly don't understand why people want the game to play out exactly like history did. I mean I understand the techs progress and stuff but why should every civ play out exactly as they did in our history. I look at the games like alternative timelines where perhaps Egypt was not so advanced in the beginning because any number of reasons. Or perhaps the Aztecs leave the Americas and discover the west first, rather than Europeans coming to America. I mean there are so many possibles that I doubt even if we ran history over on Earth, that history would repeat itself.
Ok I ave a few questions ...
1. Whats the difference between "Ceramics" and "Pottery"?
2. Why would sewing appear after livestock domestication? I mean people killed animals way before then and could get animal hides from hunting wild animals just as well.
3. I am guessing Foraging is the same as Gathering. But what is Harvesting? Because basically I separated it into Gathering = Plant resource and Scavenging = Animals resources.
4. I also disagree about spiritualism being so early on.
5. I don't think cuniform should be listed since that's what "writing" means. And not all cultures had cuniform either.
6. I do like the musical traditions idea but I was going to add it as "Folk Music" later on and then also add other "Musics" to later eras.
7. Why would shelter building require woodworking? You can build grass shelters without wood.
Overall I am happy for the enthusiasm but your method not only leaves out a bunch of stuff but I don't think makes all that much sense in the order you give. When I was making my tree I made sure to incorporate existing techs that Strategyonly already had in place. You forget things like microliths, flint knapping, megafauna domestication, etc.
Thanks for the ideas but I think we are good at the moment and don't need a total overhaul again. While not always perfect I do research the stuff I propose before planning it out.
Ok I ave a few questions ...
1. Whats the difference between "Ceramics" and "Pottery"?
2. Why would sewing appear after livestock domestication? I mean people killed animals way before then and could get animal hides from hunting wild animals just as well.
3. I am guessing Foraging is the same as Gathering. But what is Harvesting? Because basically I separated it into Gathering = Plant resource and Scavenging = Animals resources.
4. I also disagree about spiritualism being so early on.
5. I don't think cuniform should be listed since that's what "writing" means. And not all cultures had cuniform either.
6. I do like the musical traditions idea but I was going to add it as "Folk Music" later on and then also add other "Musics" to later eras.
7. Why would shelter building require woodworking? You can build grass shelters without wood.
Overall I am happy for the enthusiasm but your method not only leaves out a bunch of stuff but I don't think makes all that much sense in the order you give. When I was making my tree I made sure to incorporate existing techs that Strategyonly already had in place. You forget things like microliths, flint knapping, megafauna domestication, etc.
Thanks for the ideas but I think we are good at the moment and don't need a total overhaul again. While not always perfect I do research the stuff I propose before planning it out.
Antmanbrooks
Prince
If you are playing on an earth map with nations starting about where they did it would be sensible to try and have the religions founded by the nation that did historically but it makes no sence for Egypt to create a religion based on monsoonal flooding of a river when they are in the tundra without a river in sight. My opinion only
Maybe he is playing on the GEM map? When I play GEM I like the game to roughly follow an accurate timeline (but not 100% the same) so that the techs are discovered at roughly the same time. I understand why people like the religions to be founded in their correct civs on this type of game too, it's just more cohesive to have the religions in their correct culture.
On a random map however I don't really care. Both types of game I find most fun when the alternative events happen, like the Aztecs sailing to Europe first etc...
Each to their own I guess.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
Yeah, i watch ALOT of the History channel and from what i am seeing, is that there were some kind of flying machines back to -3000 BC looking at the hieroglyphics (http://www.ufopictureblog.com/2007/October/UFO-and-Aliens-in-Ancient-Egyptian-Hieroglyphics.htm) so are we going to then include them in Prehistoric era, i dont think so.
Most definitely.
bullrider19717
Chieftain
I would just like to expand on this as I would love to play this mod. I downloaded NWAPreH.7z, extracted it to my BTS/Mods folder. SO far so good. lol The game will load, but its when I actually go to start a map I have a problem. During the map load screen, it gets only to init graphics, and then just stops. Now I have been playing Rise of Man 2.8, and I have no problems with it. I am running Vista SP2, have 1.5 GB RAM, 3GB Page File, 512 MB Nvidia GeForce 8500 GT, with updated drivers. I have even tried using a program called Game Booster to boost my resources, but still no luck, exact same thing. Has anyone else had this problem or have an idea of what I can try? And yes, I have tried with small map and few Civs as well.
But this mod does look awesome, just want to play it!! lmao
But this mod does look awesome, just want to play it!! lmao
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Wait why did you change them? Whats sculpture require "Spear Fishing"?
Ok back to me tweaking again. please change the following ...
- Livestock Domestication (Req Canine Domestication AND Tanning)
- Sedentary Lifestyle (Req Megalith Construction AND Carpentry AND Chiefdom)
- Agriculture (Req Slash & Burn AND Sedentary Lifestyle AND Livestock Domestication)
- Sculpture (Req Masonry AND Ceremonial Burial)
- Sacrifice Cult (Req Mysticism AND Livestock Domestication)
- Polytheism (Req Mysticism AND Sculpture)
- Megalith Construction (Req Mysticism AND Stone Building AND (Slavery OR Megafauna Domestication))
- Masonry (Req Sedentary Lifestyle AND Mining)
- Copper Working (Req Archery AND Mining)
Also please move Livestock Domestication to where Sedentary Lifestyle is now. Sedentary Lifestyle to where Agriculture is now and Agriculture to where Livestock Domestication is.
Please quit trying to incorporate "Megafauna Domestication" to "Livestock Domestication". they are suppose to exist independently.
Well if the show has the name "Alien" in its just a bunch of bunk. Its one thing to play alternative history where people domesticated ground sloths (which did exist which humans) but its another to make up fantastic technology from aliens. Any steampunk or other advanced stuff I would like to propose is just normal progression of technology where people decided to go down another path. For example in ancient times there were steam power devices like the Aeolipile, however technological advancement steam technology did not advance until the industrial revolution. Thus it would be plausible that if such technology was researched back then history could have been much different.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Ok time for me to brainstorm on more buildings ...
-----
Ipu (Req Cooking)
Cost: 30
Obsolete: Monotheism
Req Building: Firepit
Special Abilities
-----
Dining Hall (Req Cooking AND Shelter Building)
Cost: 30
Obsolete: ?
Req Building: Storage Pit OR Granary
Special Abilities
-----
Seamstress's Hut (Req Sewing AND Shelter Building)
Cost: 40
Obsolete:
Req Building: Weaver's Hut
Special Abilities
-----
Apple Orchard (Req Fermentation)
Cost: 50
Obsolete: Globalization
Req Resource: Apples
Special Abilities
-----
Olive Orchard (Req Fermentation)
Cost: 50
Obsolete: Globalization
Req Resource: Olives
Special Abilities
-----
Vineyard (Req Fermentation)
Cost: 50
Obsolete: Globalization
Req Resource: Wine
Special Abilities
-----
Winery (Req Fermentation)
Cost: 100
Obsolete: Globalization
Req Building: Vineyard
Special Abilities
-----
Distillery (Req Fermentation)
Cost: 100
Obsolete: Globalization
Req Building: Agave Plantation
Special Abilities
-----
Furniture Maker's Workshop (Req Carpentry AND Aesthetics)
Cost: 80
Obsolete: Globalization
Req Building: Lumber Camp
Special Abilities
-----
Astrology School (Req Astrology)
Cost: 100
Obsolete: Astronomy
Special Abilities
-----
-----
Ipu (Req Cooking)
Cost: 30
Obsolete: Monotheism
Req Building: Firepit
Special Abilities
- +5% Food
- +1 Food with Pig
- +1 Health
- +1 Culture
- Replaces Firepit
-----
Dining Hall (Req Cooking AND Shelter Building)
Cost: 30
Obsolete: ?
Req Building: Storage Pit OR Granary
Special Abilities
- +10% Food
- +1 Health
- +1 Culture
- +1 Happiness
-----
Seamstress's Hut (Req Sewing AND Shelter Building)
Cost: 40
Obsolete:
Req Building: Weaver's Hut
Special Abilities
- +1 Gold
- +1 Gold with Dyes
- +1 Culture
- +1 Happiness
-----
Apple Orchard (Req Fermentation)
Cost: 50
Obsolete: Globalization
Req Resource: Apples
Special Abilities
- +1 Food
- +1 Gold
-----
Olive Orchard (Req Fermentation)
Cost: 50
Obsolete: Globalization
Req Resource: Olives
Special Abilities
- +1 Food
- +1 Gold
-----
Vineyard (Req Fermentation)
Cost: 50
Obsolete: Globalization
Req Resource: Wine
Special Abilities
- +1 Food
- +1 Gold
-----
Winery (Req Fermentation)
Cost: 100
Obsolete: Globalization
Req Building: Vineyard
Special Abilities
- +1 Happy
- +2 Gold
- -1 Health
-----
Distillery (Req Fermentation)
Cost: 100
Obsolete: Globalization
Req Building: Agave Plantation
Special Abilities
- +1 Happy
- +2 Gold
- -1 Health
-----
Furniture Maker's Workshop (Req Carpentry AND Aesthetics)
Cost: 80
Obsolete: Globalization
Req Building: Lumber Camp
Special Abilities
- +1 Gold
- +1 Gold with Prime Timber
- +1 Gold with Machinery
- +1 Gold with Guilds
- +1 Gold with Invention
- +1 Gold with Assembly Line
-----
Astrology School (Req Astrology)
Cost: 100
Obsolete: Astronomy
Special Abilities
- +2 Science
- +2 Culture
-----
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
RoM may add lots of units and buildings. AND adds more on top with a bit of redundancy removal. Then this one adds everything and the kitchen sink with ethnic art to boot so it needs much more RAM. I have XP with 3Gb and 3G switch on and I cant get past the renassiance which is OK for me because that is when I loose interest in the game.
Simple solution - get more RAM.
bullrider19717
Chieftain
Okay, guess I'll hope to get some money for xmas then so I can get more. Any ideas of how much I might need? Any software out there I might be able to use for now to boost my RAM? Would a larger Page file help? I'd just like to get my feet wet with this.
Also, on a sepeate note, can anyone direct me to a really good How To on mods. I am on med leave so have lots of free time, and would love to get into doing mods. I am a history freak so I think I could do some neat stuff with some know now and maybe a little help. lol
Also, on a sepeate note, can anyone direct me to a really good How To on mods. I am on med leave so have lots of free time, and would love to get into doing mods. I am a history freak so I think I could do some neat stuff with some know now and maybe a little help. lol
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Well... it could be interpreted either way as both SL and AG 'fed' off each other in development. Planting led to Sedentary lifestyle which led to a real development of agriculture.So you agree with me
More importantly, the difference in domestication is significant, a first stage which included horseback riding, long before the development of stationary sites, and a second stage which represented the farm use of domesticated animals.
Would go nicely with gatherers that collect food and production by simply moving onto tiles (perhaps as long as that tile hasn't been gathered in the last 10 rnds (snail)) then returning with their haul. (note: from gatherers, these should be small bonuses for each collection, but should add up. Hunters should get a bit more, much the amounts they get now, but should be able to carry a decent amount. This could change gameplay in many interesting ways strategically!
So is there a way to surgically make the fix here? Where would I need to look to educate myself to be capable of this?
The latter part sounds like madness... blech! But would it be possible to extract the honey from the hive and add it here? This could be a replacement fix for above noted problem... a nice alternative really... even better to be able to select the city you want to found your religions in!There are a number of mods which have the Great Prophet (GP) create an available religion with GP's free to the first to get a tech. Again quite a lot of work, most seem to insist that only civs that found the religion can do so in game. Which means you can only play on an Earth map with civs in their "correct" starting points. If you play on random you will have your civ in the tundra creating a religion with strong monsoonal basis
BTW: Don't go knocking the Ancient Aliens theory! It's really the only one that makes sense from so many perspectives. I've personally been a proponent for decades and have read a LOT of books on the subject. I can still play and enjoy CIV though even if there isn't really any way to duplicate that aspect of history in a game like this.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
Can someone give me a Hail Mary Pass
But i do believe in this, infact i watch it each and every week on the History Channel. EDIT: I recorded it also
@Dancing Hoskuld
I was just thinking (my brain, dang smoke) i think "we" need something like a Carnival waaay before the actual Carnival that does almost the same thing, to get rid of those subdued animals that take up alot of commence just sitting in your cities? Thoughts, ideas?
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Heh... watching it now
I think any real student of ancient history will find the puzzle pieces add up to such a conclusion. So it shouldn't surprise me to find a like thinker among the Civ crowd.
I think any real student of ancient history will find the puzzle pieces add up to such a conclusion. So it shouldn't surprise me to find a like thinker among the Civ crowd.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@strategyonly
Ok I am actually really happy with this version of the tech tree. I think we have a winner. It both makes sense and moves tech along. I think this may be as good as we can get it. The only down side is the connection arrows. But that's a minor thing compared to having them work.
Ok I am actually really happy with this version of the tech tree. I think we have a winner. It both makes sense and moves tech along. I think this may be as good as we can get it. The only down side is the connection arrows. But that's a minor thing compared to having them work.
Antmanbrooks
Prince
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10016992&postcount=438
I know this is a work in progress though and I'm anticipating the end result. None of what I suggested was intended as a critisism of your work, it was just my thoughts after playtesting several run through's of the current tree. If you don't mind I would like to put my version of the tree into practice and if I get time to complete it I would happily make it available for others on this thread as an alternative version. Good luck with the rest of the mod and it's shaping up to be something fun! No hard feelings.
Oh, also, what changes have you made to the tech tree later in the game? I couldn't find a link on this thread to the full tree, do you have one?
I know this is a work in progress though and I'm anticipating the end result. None of what I suggested was intended as a critisism of your work, it was just my thoughts after playtesting several run through's of the current tree. If you don't mind I would like to put my version of the tree into practice and if I get time to complete it I would happily make it available for others on this thread as an alternative version. Good luck with the rest of the mod and it's shaping up to be something fun! No hard feelings.
Oh, also, what changes have you made to the tech tree later in the game? I couldn't find a link on this thread to the full tree, do you have one?
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@Antmanbrooks
First of all I look at my tree and ask "what would they know?" Thus many techs might sound more advance than they are due to a lack of a better name. Thus in tech like weaving they would not be weaving wool at first because they do not have animal domestication yet.
1. I believe I cover that with "Carving" tech.
2. Well on the tree "Weaving" tech represents the most primitive weaving which would use plant fibers and not animal fibers yet. This would be things like mats and stuff. Note that this is even before basketry tech. Sewing on the other hand is more or less binding animal skins together.
3. See that's where ours differ. I split it up with plants and animals rather than grains vs everything else.
4. Your example would be much later on the tech tree around "ceremonial burial".
5. Well the Writing icon has a cuniform picture so I assume it covered that as well as say hieroglyphics and other primitive writings. And even if we separated it what buildings/units/stuff would such a tech give?
6. Like the sports mod which added sports techs, I feel that music and dance should have some techs too. Which is why I wanted to put in both Prehistoric Dance and Prehistoric Music. I would also like to change to the name of "Music" tech to something else once I figure out what name it should be.
7. Remember its a very early tech so other techs would add on to it. Shelter Building + Woodworking would make wooden shelters. Shelter Building + Tanning would make animal skin shelters. And of course Stone Building would make stone shelters.
8a. Yes some are empty right now but I plan on filling them with stuff be it buildings or promotions or maybe even units (ex trained mammoth). i am only one person and I can only mod so much. If i could instantly "poof" all my ideas into existence at once I would. But them being empty at the moment is just how it will have to be for awhile. I remember when Zappara was first building "Rise of Mankind" and not only were there hardly any buildings or units but techs were flying all over the place. This is no difference since we are basically making a new era from almost nothing.
8b. Building balance can come later. I am just trying to get them in there so they are not empty. I also would like to add some more civics that make things a bit harder and thus the buildings will become even more important to get "above water". Right now the Garbage mod is doing a nice job of making health buildings more important. I would like to do the same for other game elements or even have other building balance each other.
8c. Well I was trying to go back as far as i could. If it was possible to go earlier than 10,000 BC then I would have the date changed.
9. Please do not get preaching on "more is not always better". If you want less play RoM. Afforess dose a great job of slimming the mod down to make it much more balanced. This mod however is basically "everything and the kitchen sink". Some day it may become more balanced but not at the cost of slimming or taking away stuff. Also if you think there is too much too fast, put it on a lower speed. I make my mods for snail speed where its slow enough to enjoy the plethora of buildings.
10. Yea no hard feeling. I do have a "master vision" of how I would like it be when i finally add all my ideas to this mod. It should be a really epic game that spans "Cavemen to Cosmos" and includes factors from all my favorite games, be it Sim City, Age of Empires, Empire Earth, Spore, Outpost, SMAC, etc.
-------------------
So I have been brainstorming an idea where you can get "bonus crops". These would be extra "fake" resources that are avilable if you have 2 resources in your city vicinity. For example "Prime Timber" + "Sugar" = "Maple Trees" for Maple Syrup farms. Here is a diagram of how it could work.
What I tried to do with the resources was this ...
Lemons = Citrus
Apples = Stone Fruit
Bananas = Other Fruit
Potatoes = Root Vegetables
Spices = Spices
Coca Plant & Tobacco = Drugs
Corn = Pre-Colombian Plants
Rice & Tea = Asian Plants
Olives = Mediterranean Plants
Wine = Berries & Vines
Prime Timber & Coffee = Nuts
Cotton = Fiber Plants
Please post your ideas of what crops could be added that are not currently on the chart. (See Attachment Below)
First of all I look at my tree and ask "what would they know?" Thus many techs might sound more advance than they are due to a lack of a better name. Thus in tech like weaving they would not be weaving wool at first because they do not have animal domestication yet.
1. I believe I cover that with "Carving" tech.
2. Well on the tree "Weaving" tech represents the most primitive weaving which would use plant fibers and not animal fibers yet. This would be things like mats and stuff. Note that this is even before basketry tech. Sewing on the other hand is more or less binding animal skins together.
3. See that's where ours differ. I split it up with plants and animals rather than grains vs everything else.
4. Your example would be much later on the tech tree around "ceremonial burial".
5. Well the Writing icon has a cuniform picture so I assume it covered that as well as say hieroglyphics and other primitive writings. And even if we separated it what buildings/units/stuff would such a tech give?
6. Like the sports mod which added sports techs, I feel that music and dance should have some techs too. Which is why I wanted to put in both Prehistoric Dance and Prehistoric Music. I would also like to change to the name of "Music" tech to something else once I figure out what name it should be.
7. Remember its a very early tech so other techs would add on to it. Shelter Building + Woodworking would make wooden shelters. Shelter Building + Tanning would make animal skin shelters. And of course Stone Building would make stone shelters.
8a. Yes some are empty right now but I plan on filling them with stuff be it buildings or promotions or maybe even units (ex trained mammoth). i am only one person and I can only mod so much. If i could instantly "poof" all my ideas into existence at once I would. But them being empty at the moment is just how it will have to be for awhile. I remember when Zappara was first building "Rise of Mankind" and not only were there hardly any buildings or units but techs were flying all over the place. This is no difference since we are basically making a new era from almost nothing.
8b. Building balance can come later. I am just trying to get them in there so they are not empty. I also would like to add some more civics that make things a bit harder and thus the buildings will become even more important to get "above water". Right now the Garbage mod is doing a nice job of making health buildings more important. I would like to do the same for other game elements or even have other building balance each other.
8c. Well I was trying to go back as far as i could. If it was possible to go earlier than 10,000 BC then I would have the date changed.
9. Please do not get preaching on "more is not always better". If you want less play RoM. Afforess dose a great job of slimming the mod down to make it much more balanced. This mod however is basically "everything and the kitchen sink". Some day it may become more balanced but not at the cost of slimming or taking away stuff. Also if you think there is too much too fast, put it on a lower speed. I make my mods for snail speed where its slow enough to enjoy the plethora of buildings.
10. Yea no hard feeling. I do have a "master vision" of how I would like it be when i finally add all my ideas to this mod. It should be a really epic game that spans "Cavemen to Cosmos" and includes factors from all my favorite games, be it Sim City, Age of Empires, Empire Earth, Spore, Outpost, SMAC, etc.
-------------------
So I have been brainstorming an idea where you can get "bonus crops". These would be extra "fake" resources that are avilable if you have 2 resources in your city vicinity. For example "Prime Timber" + "Sugar" = "Maple Trees" for Maple Syrup farms. Here is a diagram of how it could work.
What I tried to do with the resources was this ...
Lemons = Citrus
Apples = Stone Fruit
Bananas = Other Fruit
Potatoes = Root Vegetables
Spices = Spices
Coca Plant & Tobacco = Drugs
Corn = Pre-Colombian Plants
Rice & Tea = Asian Plants
Olives = Mediterranean Plants
Wine = Berries & Vines
Prime Timber & Coffee = Nuts
Cotton = Fiber Plants
Please post your ideas of what crops could be added that are not currently on the chart. (See Attachment Below)
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
Yes i agree, back a few years ago it was harder than a bear to get things going. Zap hardly knew alot of python, nobody had any SDK/dll experience, etc.
Balance yes later. But still at the same time working on it, with improvements.
Garbage civics, i was thinking about this lately, and you are right you have to play alot harder trying to keep everything afloat, but what if "we" could move the civic to only START happening when you reach the Ancient Era? That way at least you'd have a fighting chance in the beginning rather than
this all the time
Infact i took out the Garbage civic just to see what would happen, and i had a waay better chance to progress.
Yes your vision is great, the ideas you are coming up with, well both you and DH are GREAT
, keep them coming.I finally had a chance with the new tech tree to test it out, and i got only to the Ancient middle Era stuff and i was having a "Fun Time." FINALLY
Antmanbrooks
Prince
I've only picked up on 8 and beyond because it seems we just disagree on the other points, so no point going over it.
8a onwards - OK, good to see that you are planning on filling out the techs with buildings etc. I too thought the mod could do with some extra "early" civic options, so it'll be interesting to see what you come up with.
It wasn't my intention to preach and I certainly don't prefer less. All I was saying was if you are adding more make sure it's balanced and thought provoking rather than just a bonus granting building. But it sounds like you have that planned anyway.
I'm guessing you missed my last question, do you have a picture or schematic of your overall tech tree yet as I would like to see what's in store for the future era's?
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
Here is an older one, but close enough for government work
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9974543&postcount=339
Antmanbrooks
Prince
Here is an older one, but close enough for government work
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9974543&postcount=339
Wow, nice.
