Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

[tmv]

First of all, there should be (optional I guess) Sandalpunk. Antikythera should go there, and for a few other ideas there is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_of_Alexandria

An overview of that time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Antiquity

An additional civic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrarchy

For military techs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Roman_army

In general, one of the most important persons of that time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diocletian

 

[Thunderbrd]

First of all, there should be (optional I guess) Sandalpunk. Antikythera should go there, and for a few other ideas there is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_of_Alexandria

An overview of that time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Antiquity

An additional civic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrarchy

For military techs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Roman_army

In general, one of the most important persons of that time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diocletian

Some great suggestions there tmv!

 

[TrippedOnACloud]

I was under the impression that Feudalism IS the Medieval gateway tech, though I haven't looked at the prerequisites or tech path. I do agree that Pikemen and longbowmen probably come a bit too early, especially if rushed, but they're hardly enough stronger than even a mid classical army to be an insurmountable obstacle for a human player. The AI though, probably can't deal with it, as at present it doesn't really understand tactics, just gathers up a mob of units according to predefined numbers and throws them at the target.

 

[JosEPh_II]

IF Feudalism is the Med Era gateway it should not be. Charters and/or Agricultural Tools would be better. Feudalism can be easily swapped with Agricultural Tools.

I have ran a test game where I added the AND prereq Tech_Music (although in the Tech tree it is displayed as Musical Notation, another Misnamed Tech to clean up) to Feudalism and this adds about 5 more Classical techs that would need to be researched before you could get Feudalism. Tghis would slow this "rush" to Feudalism a little bit.

If no one on the Team has any objections I would like to make this change to the SVN. I await your respective responses.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Musical Notation is the correct name. There were musical notations before the one we use now but they were not systimatic or complete as we now have. For example there was a notation which meant either "as is traditionally done here" or if you are good enough "put your own variation on the traditional theme here" telling you nothing of what notes to play or for how long to play that section. Early European music notation was around in the Classical era, it was formalised during the late Renaissance.

 

[Thunderbrd]

IF Feudalism is the Med Era gateway it should not be. Charters and/or Agricultural Tools would be better. Feudalism can be easily swapped with Agricultural Tools.

I have ran a test game where I added the AND prereq Tech_Music (although in the Tech tree it is displayed as Musical Notation, another Misnamed Tech to clean up) to Feudalism and this adds about 5 more Classical techs that would need to be researched before you could get Feudalism. Tghis would slow this "rush" to Feudalism a little bit.

If no one on the Team has any objections I would like to make this change to the SVN. I await your respective responses.

JosEPh

As a patch for bad design, sure, but it would benefit us more to have someone really dig in and develop in this area instead of just making patchwork improvements. At some point soon I'll take a look and offer some bullet points as to what I don't like about that region... there are definitely things I was not pleased by. I'm also all for design elements like a Longbow weapon technology, so that we can place the longbow units and some other archery based medieval stuff there and split it up from a civic based tech that was almost unrelated other than chronological concurrence. New techs are needed in this region of the tech tree and simply splitting up overstuffed ones may be a good way to get started looking at it.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Musical Notation is the correct name. There were musical notations before the one we use now but they were not systimatic or complete as we now have. For example there was a notation which meant either "as is traditionally done here" or if you are good enough "put your own variation on the traditional theme here" telling you nothing of what notes to play or for how long to play that section. Early European music notation was around in the Classical era, it was formalised during the late Renaissance.

Music Notation is the Displayed tech tree name, problem is if you open the technology xml file and do a search for TECH_MUSIC_NOTATION you will come up empty. TECH_MUSIC is what resides in the xml file.

Which poses the question if the TECH_MUSIC is changed to TECH_MUSICAL_NOTATION will it break saved games?

@T-brd,
A Patch right now is better than waiting. And I'm also looking at making Agricultural Tools the entry point to the Med Era not Feudalism. Feudalism would then need Agricultural tools 1st. I am testing this now.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Music Notation is the Displayed tech tree name, problem is if you open the technology xml file and do a search for TECH_MUSIC_NOTATION you will come up empty. TECH_MUSIC is what resides in the xml file.

Which poses the question if the TECH_MUSIC is changed to TECH_MUSICAL_NOTATION will it break saved games?


JosEPh

Probably but then we have a few that need their names fixed.

 

[TrippedOnACloud]

I should probably note that historically, the longbow as an actual weapon significantly predates its massed use in warfare, which is what the Longbowman unit actually represents. It isn't so much a technology so much as the social and economic factors that made it possible to field such a force en masse. For that matter, we may be a bit overly focused on European history and historical progress, here. A better look at Asian (primarily Chinese and Indian) and Middle Eastern (Islamic Golden Age) history may help with any large-scale reworking of the Medieval era tech tree. That said, I'm not a historian, and I don't really have the time or game design experience to properly undertake such a task myself.

Also, bonus production speed with Prime Timber and Bamboo for Longbowman (and unique variants) units? Nothing particularly major, just along the lines of +5-10% for each, similar to the bonuses to production speed for Copper/Bronze/Iron Wares that metal-wielding units can get. Those could probably stand to be reduced a bit, incidentally, because of the way they stack.

 

[Thunderbrd]

A Patch right now is better than waiting. And I'm also looking at making Agricultural Tools the entry point to the Med Era not Feudalism. Feudalism would then need Agricultural tools 1st. I am testing this now.

I suppose I was agreeing with that. However, when looking at a tech tree, I think we must also be able to answer questions like "Why would that tech A have been needed to develop tech B. I question what justification there could possibly be for Feudalism to require a certain musical tech. We CAN have interesting pivot techs, Medieval Lifestyle would be an example, which may easily be justified to require a musical (social) tech as well as other technological techs that lead to the culmination of the moment we would consider the Medieval lifestyle to be current. From there, it would then extend to make more sense that Feudalism would be the civic ideal that sprouts from this state of medieval mindset. And so on.

But sure, why not as a short term solution just make a few hasty adjustments to improve the flow for now.

Also, bonus production speed with Prime Timber and Bamboo for Longbowman (and unique variants) units? Nothing particularly major, just along the lines of +5-10% for each, similar to the bonuses to production speed for Copper/Bronze/Iron Wares that metal-wielding units can get. Those could probably stand to be reduced a bit, incidentally, because of the way they stack.

Probably a good idea. I have the slightest of distaste for the original production speed bonuses as listed because the rest of the units weren't given the same kind of consideration so going through and adding those concepts for other unit types is another big project that should be undertaken at some point if we're not going to remove those that have been done so far. I wouldn't remove them out of respect for Hydro so it's a project that should indeed be done. It is one source of headaches when I do these reviews though. I can tell you that.

I should probably note that historically, the longbow as an actual weapon significantly predates its massed use in warfare, which is what the Longbowman unit actually represents. It isn't so much a technology so much as the social and economic factors that made it possible to field such a force en masse. For that matter, we may be a bit overly focused on European history and historical progress, here. A better look at Asian (primarily Chinese and Indian) and Middle Eastern (Islamic Golden Age) history may help with any large-scale reworking of the Medieval era tech tree. That said, I'm not a historian, and I don't really have the time or game design experience to properly undertake such a task myself.

Might be helpful to identify what those social and economic factors actually were. And I agree that sometimes we allow ourselves to be blinded by not looking at the development paths of other cultures.

Which poses the question if the TECH_MUSIC is changed to TECH_MUSICAL_NOTATION will it break saved games?

It shouldn't BREAK them but it would enforce the need to re-research it for any nations that have it. However, saves are to be broken again within the next few weeks anyhow so this is a good time to endeavor to fix these spots.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I wouldn't remove them out of respect for Hydro so it's a project that should indeed be done. It is one source of headaches when I do these reviews though. I can tell you that.

I don't think he got round to doing the changes to the units after we got the metals working right. We did discuss it. I thought we wanted it to be 5% for each additive or maybe 2% for the ore, 3% for the ingots and 5% for the wares. The problem comes with units that could work with multiple ores.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I don't think he got round to doing the changes to the units after we got the metals working right. We did discuss it. I thought we wanted it to be 5% for each additive or maybe 2% for the ore, 3% for the ingots and 5% for the wares. The problem comes with units that could work with multiple ores.

Many of the units were updated but many were not as well. And that IS part of the issue isn't it... The thing is, at some point, I feel like I'm going to want to yank all that out anyhow and make equipment reflective of the best types of materials you have access to more than any production bonus (which is odd since training cost is exactly that, time to train the troops more than time to create the materials - at least that's how I feel it should be really.)

 

[TrippedOnACloud]

Regarding Longbowmen, I was mainly thinking of the laws encouraging the practice with longbows by boys and men in England, and the availability of sufficient excess labor to allow the time to do that practicing. As far as production bonuses with Prime Timber/Bamboo, I was mostly thinking along the lines of availability of materials allowing widespread practice, thus allowing a larger potential pool of trained archers as well as greater proficiency to begin with reducing the effective training period. That said, it was more of an idle thought and slight benefit.

For that matter, is it possible to change that to a vicinity bonus instead? That is, if the city produces X resource locally, then units dependent on that resource can be trained faster? Also, the benefits would decrease as transportation networks become more capable, and phased out altogether at some point in the tech tree.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I have not had the time to finish my proposed "patch" for the Starting Tech for Med Era and the extremely short path thru Classical Era to get to Feudalism. RL has gotten in the way. Might be a week or so before I can make it a more palatable "patch".

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Regarding Longbowmen, I was mainly thinking of the laws encouraging the practice with longbows by boys and men in England, and the availability of sufficient excess labor to allow the time to do that practicing. As far as production bonuses with Prime Timber/Bamboo, I was mostly thinking along the lines of availability of materials allowing widespread practice, thus allowing a larger potential pool of trained archers as well as greater proficiency to begin with reducing the effective training period. That said, it was more of an idle thought and slight benefit.

For that matter, is it possible to change that to a vicinity bonus instead? That is, if the city produces X resource locally, then units dependent on that resource can be trained faster? Also, the benefits would decrease as transportation networks become more capable, and phased out altogether at some point in the tech tree.

While it is almost always possible to do something there is nothing currently in the system that will allow this. That means there would need to be something programmed into the code and AI added. I would not think it a useful change at this time.

With the longbow, I have seen it described by historians as a "well known secret weapon". The secret not being the weapon or how to train in the use of it but the change in the social order needed to have people with free time to practice using it. You need a lot of yeomen. Yeomen are not peasants but the beginning of the middle class. It means giving up some control by the nobility. The view expressed by these historians is that you can't have longbow men if your society is strictly Feudal it has to be post-Feudal.

I have not had the time to finish my proposed "patch" for the Starting Tech for Med Era and the extremely short path thru Classical Era to get to Feudalism. RL has gotten in the way. Might be a week or so before I can make it a more palatable "patch".

JosEPh

One thing I have noticed in my latest games is that I get Monotheism 5-10 techs before I get Polytheism this does not seem right. RI and C2C seem to be the only two mods that allow you to do this.

 

[Thunderbrd]

With the longbow, I have seen it described by historians as a "well known secret weapon". The secret not being the weapon or how to train in the use of it but the change in the social order needed to have people with free time to practice using it. You need a lot of yeomen. Yeomen are not peasants but the beginning of the middle class. It means giving up some control by the nobility. The view expressed by these historians is that you can't have longbow men if your society is strictly Feudal it has to be post-Feudal.

This points to a civic requirement for the Longbowmen unit... I don't think that would be good for the game but could the development of the Yeoman class be encompassed into a tech at least? How could we go about that? What sort of technology would that be?

 

[Galadrion]

One thing I have noticed in my latest games is that I get Monotheism 5-10 techs before I get Polytheism this does not seem right.

I don't actually see anything particularly wrong with this as a concept; what it implies to me is that your culture is proceeding from the idea of a single, generalist deity to the idea of multiple, specialized deities rather that in the opposite direction (as most of our real-world cultures did). While our real-world cultures - some of them, anyway - tended to develop their worldviews from one viewpoint in a particular direction, there isn't any inherent reason why a specific, fictional culture couldn't start from a different viewpoint and develop in the reverse direction. Neither concept is actually a prerequisite of the other.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I don't actually see anything particularly wrong with this as a concept; what it implies to me is that your culture is proceeding from the idea of a single, generalist deity to the idea of multiple, specialized deities rather that in the opposite direction (as most of our real-world cultures did). While our real-world cultures - some of them, anyway - tended to develop their worldviews from one viewpoint in a particular direction, there isn't any inherent reason why a specific, fictional culture couldn't start from a different viewpoint and develop in the reverse direction. Neither concept is actually a prerequisite of the other.

You make a very interesting point Galadrion. Not historically accurate but a meaningful consideration. I believe I KNOW why things went the way they did on Earth but take that answer away and I think you are correct. No reason the first real solid idea of the divine couldn't be a singular one.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The usual progression is said to be Animism, Pantheism (god is everything, everything is god), Polytheism, Monotheism all with or without various intermediaries between you and the divine. As you can see there is a stage of one divine being before Polytheism

 

[JosEPh_II]

The usual progression is said to be Animism, Pantheism (god is everything, everything is god), Polytheism, Monotheism all with or without various intermediaries between you and the divine. As you can see there is a stage of one divine being before Polytheism

Depends upon "who" said the "usual progression is said to be...". And what makes "them" the final word?

JosEPh