Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

@Septimius I can understand some of your problems here. However I will say that "more" civics in the early is not really needed as in the base Civ IV BTS game it is basically the same tbh. However making certain changes more worthwhile to a different civics for different playstyles might be nice. For Example I run the EXACT same civics for each age no matter my playstyle and there are defo civics I avoid - even though this is the case as well for Civ IV BTS, emancipation is basically useless :p
 
I think problem with civics is that PERCENTAGE modifiers from different sources are additive not multiplicative - that is for example you have +300% production bonus from resources and buildings and +50% production boost from civics your final bonus is 350% not 3.00*1.5 = 450% bonus.
Ideally it would be modifiers from resources * modifiers from buildings * modifiers from cvics.
That is they matter less in later game, when it comes to :commerce::culture::espionage::food::gold::gp::hammers::science: percentage modifiers :p
All I cared was Great People percentage modifiers, as there isn't too much resource/building modifiers for them.
Basically my government was like this over my entire playtrough : tribialism - absolute monarchy - feudal monarchy - American liberal democracy - European liberal democracy - green fully automated luxury gay space communism (when colonization of Solar System to Orion Arm was underway) - cosmic government (when spreading beyond Milky Way) - transcendent government (colonizing insides of black hole, unobservable universe, hyperspace, other universes and beyond)

Of course in modern - transhuman era you can create true totalitarian/communist/corporatist state, but they were out of way for my GP focused government.
Later people are becoming one with technology :p

Heres is endgame capital (No AIs means espionage is null):
My buildings list look so funny, when you see things from prehistoric and transcendent eras.... its true spirit of "caveman2cosmos" :p
Spoiler :









It seems like there are several unique modifier groups:
Bonus/Resource, Building, Project/Wonder, Civic, Capital, Power and Trait (Religion too probably).

Lets check percentage modifiers for Food:
I'm getting 880 units in capital.
If total percentage modifier was sum of modifiers - total is 163% (2.63x) - this means 2314 units.
If they were multipliers: total modifier would be 296% (3.96x) - that would be 3484 units.
Actual production is 2167 units. Something wonky is going on.

Lets see how science is generated - it is in two phases: first as commerce, and then as science itself.
1213 Commerce is transformed into 2365 Commerce.
Purely additive modifier: 95% (1.95x), purely multiplicative modifier: 123% (2.23x)
These methods would yield 2365 / 2705 Commerce - it implies commerce modifiers are purely additive.
5597 Beakers is transformed into 33246 Beakers.
Purely additive modifier: 494% (5.94x), purely multiplicative modifier: 2365% (24.65x)
These methods would yield 33246 / 137966 beakers - meaning purely additive method.
 
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Lets check percentage modifiers for Food:
I'm getting 880 units in capital.
If total percentage modifier was sum of modifiers - total is 163% - this means 1434 units.
If they were multipliers: total modifier would be 396% - that would be 3848 units.
Actual production is 2167 units. This means modifiers are partly adding to each other and partly multiplying like A+B*C+D*E*F for example.

Lets see how science is generated - it is in two phases: first as commerce, and then as science itself.
1213 Commerce is transformed into 2365 Commerce.
Purely additive modifier: 195%, purely multiplicative modifier: 223%
These methods would yield 2365 / 2705 Commerce- it implies commerce modifiers are purely additive.
5597 Beakers is transformed into 33265 Beakers.
Purely additive modifier: 494%, purely multiplicative modifier: 2465%
These methods would yield 27649 / 137966 beakers - meaning mixed method.

Food yields exact results- bonuses add to 163%. This means we have 2.63 times the food, for 2314. The issue is with the detailed window showing bad summing up. If you look at the top of the screen, you can see it adds to 2314.

Commerce is fine because you accidently added 100%. The bonus is 95%, so we get 1.95 of the commerce, as you calculated.

Beakers are the same- 494% bonus, so we get 5.94 times the amount.

This means that all of the bonuses are additive, as we expected. I agree it would be nice to have some of them multiplicative, though.
 
I think it would just add to confusion for players trying to audit the numbers to introduce more multiplicative stages for player vs local modifiers. I also am aware that some display auditing is still needed. Low priority imo.
 
I think it would just add to confusion for players trying to audit the numbers to introduce more multiplicative stages for player vs local modifiers. I also am aware that some display auditing is still needed. Low priority imo.

100% Agree.

Why is every time we get ready to put out a new version we end up having players show up wanting wholesale changes?
 
I can see the desire to make the multipliers more multiplicative, but that sounds like a real nightmare from a game balancing perspective.
 
Food yields exact results- bonuses add to 163%. This means we have 2.63 times the food, for 2314. The issue is with the detailed window showing bad summing up. If you look at the top of the screen, you can see it adds to 2314.

Commerce is fine because you accidently added 100%. The bonus is 95%, so we get 1.95 of the commerce, as you calculated.

Beakers are the same- 494% bonus, so we get 5.94 times the amount.

This means that all of the bonuses are additive, as we expected. I agree it would be nice to have some of them multiplicative, though.
Fixed it - probably offset by 1 was caused by constant jumping between straight multiplying and percentages :p
1% bonus means value increased 1.01 times - this got lost somewhere :p

For example lets say modifiers are calculated like this: (sum of civics modifiers + state religion)*(sum of trait modifiers)*sum of all other modifiers, meaning civics and traits modifiers wouldn't get flooded by building/resource modifiers - total 50% increase from these civics and 10% decrease from that bad trait would mean you always get 1.5*0.9*sum of other modifiers units of something.
Basically traits and civics would make stronger impact in late game too.
 
Putting multiple factors in a multiplicative formula gives a much faster increase than in an additive formula.
for example:

Additive: if base yield = A, add 100% leads to yield 2A, add another 100% leads to 3A, add another 100% leads to 4A

multiplicative: if base yield = A*B*C, add 100% to A you get 2ABC, then add 100% to B you get 4ABC, then add 100% to C you get 8ABC.

Both formulas have +300% added but the multiplicative formula has double the outcome of the additive formula. And the difference gets progressively bigger after that.
 
Putting multiple factors in a multiplicative formula gives a much faster increase than in an additive formula.
for example:

Additive: if base yield = A, add 100% leads to yield 2A, add another 100% leads to 3A, add another 100% leads to 4A

multiplicative: if base yield = A*B*C, add 100% to A you get 2ABC, then add 100% to B you get 4ABC, then add 100% to C you get 8ABC.

Both formulas have +300% added but the multiplicative formula has double the outcome of the additive formula. And the difference gets progressively bigger after that.
It would make civics and traits more important, if they got such treatment.
But there would be trap: if sum of civic modifiers was -100% or lower, then whole thing would break.
 
It would make civics and traits more important, if they got such treatment.
But there would be trap: if sum of civic modifiers was -100% or lower, then whole thing would break.
No it would not.

Sorry guys but you are reinventing this "wheel" all over again. The C2C Team past and present has been thru this before. And not just once either.

I can see the desire to make the multipliers more multiplicative, but that sounds like a real nightmare from a game balancing perspective.

And easily abused as well. Been there, done that type of situation.

Civics are getting worked on, in small increments. And Everyone has 1 or 3 they like or hate/don't use. You can not make wholesale changes because someone posts they want changes. Plus you need to realize we are aware of them too. We play the mod same as you. Some more than others of course. RL situations dictates that.
 
No it would not.

Sorry guys but you are reinventing this "wheel" all over again. The C2C Team past and present has been thru this before. And not just once either.



And easily abused as well. Been there, done that type of situation.

Civics are getting worked on, in small increments. And Everyone has 1 or 3 they like or hate/don't use. You can not make wholesale changes because someone posts they want changes. Plus you need to realize we are aware of them too. We play the mod same as you. Some more than others of course. RL situations dictates that.
Well civics and especially traits matter less and less in later games as modifiers from other sources get bigger as eras pass.
I wanted civics and traits to have same impact during entire game.
So basically you want to keep traits and civics mattering less in late game than in early game?

I did two screenshots showing impact of civic choices on GP generation.
Spoiler :




In both cases base GP generation is 1155 points. Modifiers are 330% from buildings, 75% from trait and 25%/170% from civics.
Currently GP is 1155+1155*(3.3+0.75+0.25) = 6121 GP
With GP focused civics: 1155+1155*(3.3+0.75+1.7) = 7796 GP
This means increasing civic boost from 25% to 170% boosted GP generation by ~27%
Really not much difference.
Multiplicative civics/traits:
GP is 1155*4.3*1.75*1.25 = 10864 GP
With GP focused civics: 1155*4.3*1.75*2.7 = 23467 GP
In this case focusing on GP civics would generate 216% more points.

If civics and traits were multiplicative then big cities with many buildings and wonders would be equally hit by civics/traits as tiny cities with no internal building/bonus boosts.
Also that -20% penalty to something in negative trait would hurt same for entire game.
And that +75% bonus to GP generation in philosophical trait would be very good for entire game without losing power.
In my end game its pretty extreme: I can switch civics to most primitive ones and empire productivity won't fall by much.
Even if I lost all traits and got all crime buildings my productivity wouldn't be cut by more than 50% in all areas.

Basically I just want traits and civics modifiers be as significant on endgame as on beginning of game.

100 base units, +10% from other modifiers and +50% from civics:
Additive would yield 100*(1+0.1+0.5) = 160 units.
Multiplicative would yield 100*1.1*1.5 = 165 units.

Same thing but civics are sacrificing certain modifier with -50% (or its beginning of game and they all are bad)
Additive: 100*(1+0.1-0.5) = 60 units.
Multiplicative: 100*1.1*0.5 = 55 units.
As you see here having multiplicative civics would make bigger impact than additive civic multipliers.
By the way properties adding/reducing stuff by percentage do less damage if you have very high modifiers from all other things.

Edit: Here is capital output after I switched last civics to beginning ones:
https://imgur.com/a/R6Qt1
Last civics VS first civics:
2365 / 1834 :commerce:
33246 / 23811:science:
197213 / 18969 :culture:
44713 / 43306 :gold:
8974 / 6697 :gp:
2167 / 1394 :food:
51517 / 39634 :hammers:

It seems like at end of game there isn't much difference for gold or culture if you are running default beginning civics or civics, that are unlocked last.
Highest impact is for Food and Production followed by Science.
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This thing can be flipped around:
Reduce/remove most modifiers from bonuses and buildings.
For example you could never get higher than 50 - 200% total modifier from bonuses, buildings and wonders in total.
This way total impact of traits and civics would be in similar magnitude.
Basically make civics/traits multiplicative or nerf buildings and obsolete them - it doesn't make sense for preindustrial buildings to exist in transcendent era.
 
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I asked for the subsistence change last time more than a year ago, so I'm quite patient Joe. The thing is, it's not just a matter of disliking the civic, it's a matter of it not mattering at all. You really should just disable it, because leaving it in, gives the sense that it's somehow a choice - which it isn't.

And for those of us who play the slow game, such things matter.
 
First off there are two Civics with the display name Subsistence! One in Economy and one in Agriculture. This should be changed.

I change to Agriculture (Subsistence) as soon as I can. I never use Economy (Subsistence). I have never seen any benefit to using it. Now maybe I am missing something but a Civic that is never going to be used needs to be removed or changed.

Maybe it is viable in the later game but when it becomes available it is worse than the Trade civic that you already have access to as Trade has lower maintenance and provides the same :food: plus other stuff.
 
Look guys, up until recently (last year) Civics were SO's to control, understand that please, and He made much of what you see in there now (off of CivPlayer8's foundation). I have been slowly working with him and making adjustments as the game revealed the need.

But 1 person's opinion, Unless that person is StrateguOnly, can not be the sole basis for a change.

Personally I feel many of the Civics are try to cover too much ground for Where, When, and What they should be influencing. SO likes complicated Civics.

@Raxxo,
Please just back off with your innuendo and abysmal suppositions about what I want. Just don't go there again. I'm telling you nicely. Understand me?
 
Look guys, up until recently (last year) Civics were SO's to control, understand that please, and He made much of what you see in there now (off of CivPlayer8's foundation). I have been slowly working with him and making adjustments as the game revealed the need.

But 1 person's opinion, Unless that person is StrateguOnly, can not be the sole basis for a change.

Personally I feel many of the Civics are try to cover too much ground for Where, When, and What they should be influencing. SO likes complicated Civics.

@Raxxo,
Please just back off with your innuendo and abysmal suppositions about what I want. Just don't go there again. I'm telling you nicely. Understand me?

Well this is why I added alternative suggestion for making civics and traits have near constant relevance for entire playtrough - by limiting percentage modifiers from buildings, wonders and bonuses so for example 10% boost from traits or civics always boosts something by around 10%.
I can see why you are so cranky and blunt - you are one balancing game and my suggestion wasn't too good for balance - it would speed up game more and more as you progressed.
I just wrote my test results here for endgame - where no one even tried to balance anything :p
Also remember that English is my secondary language :p
 
I'm not trying to influence some democratic process here to make me right, so no need to treat it as such. What I am trying to do, is point out to you the august creators, that subsistence really has no point as it is.

In a nutshell Subsistence is a later tech / worse version of Barter... Almost identical... None of the other civics have that problem that I'm aware of.


Interesting that civics have so little influence on certain incomes later game, compared to how great an influence they have early game. But I suppose that the amount of buildings constructed alone make for a serious difference in all areas later game. And of course you get a lot of other advantages from them that you haven't tallied in your account. But maybe a list of building dependent on certain civics could be made, like it's been done with wetnurse hut. Seems like a waste of time though...
 
Syncretism (peppers one of new civics) is all around worse than other religious civic - Secular.
I think multiplicative modifiers aren't needed after all - there are too many buildings, that have percentage modifiers.
 
@Raxxo Every argument you're giving to stage out muiltiplicative modifiers into a hierarchy of tiers is exactly the argument I would use against doing so. Increasing the impact of Civic/Trait modifiers would just mean you'd have even more balance problems as the game went on. Already civics and traits are often the swing reason that an AI suffers somewhere. I'm not saying that differences between them shouldn't be significant, but their overall impact on the end results needs tempered or you easily throw the game out of whack with one or another trait or civic.

Believe me, bro, this change will never happen because it's a bad idea.
 
@Raxxo Every argument you're giving to stage out muiltiplicative modifiers into a hierarchy of tiers is exactly the argument I would use against doing so. Increasing the impact of Civic/Trait modifiers would just mean you'd have even more balance problems as the game went on. Already civics and traits are often the swing reason that an AI suffers somewhere. I'm not saying that differences between them shouldn't be significant, but their overall impact on the end results needs tempered or you easily throw the game out of whack with one or another trait or civic.

Believe me, bro, this change will never happen because it's a bad idea.
Well I abandoned that idea few posts ago in favor of reducing number of buildings, that give you percentage modifiers for stuff like +1% of something for certain present bonuses or something like that - all I wanted was having civics and traits have fairly steady influence on stuff trough entire game.
For now it seems like food and production were easiest to influence trough civics on my endgame test.
I was playing without AI on my playtrough, so likely I forgot about it having trouble in general with this mod :p
 
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First off there are two Civics with the display name Subsistence! One in Economy and one in Agriculture. This should be changed.

I change to Agriculture (Subsistence) as soon as I can. I never use Economy (Subsistence). I have never seen any benefit to using it. Now maybe I am missing something but a Civic that is never going to be used needs to be removed or changed.

Maybe it is viable in the later game but when it becomes available it is worse than the Trade civic that you already have access to as Trade has lower maintenance and provides the same :food: plus other stuff.

I'm with everyone who says economic subsistence is crap. I see zero benefit over barter, which is available sooner and easier. Then compared with trade and later, I see no reason to switch to it even when I do have the extra money.

Right now it just fills no role.

If there's an economic reason we are not seeing, please advise.
 
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