Challenge-I-03

Ozbenno

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While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we are running a series of ten games called the Hall of Fame Challenge Series. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings of one of the games will be counted towards the Challenge.

(*) Please read the >> HOF rules << BEFORE playing!

Settings:
  • Victory Condition: Diplomatic (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
  • Difficulty: Emperor
  • Starting Era: Ancient
  • Map Size: Standard
  • Map Type: Ice Age
  • Speed: Quick
  • Required: Aggressive AI, No Vassal States
  • Must Not Be Checked: No Barbarians
  • Civ: Carthage (Hannibal)
  • Opponents: Must include America (Franklin Roosevelt), Celt (Boudica), France (Napoleon), Mongolia (Genghis Khan), Persia (Cyrus), Russia (Catherine)
  • Version: 3.19.002 or 3.19.003
  • Date: 1st January to 30th April 2010
Must not play as Inca.
The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.
 
+1 years peace
+2 resource supply
+4 fair trade
+2 open borders

Other than GK that is enough to get any of them to vote AFAIK, and that's before civics or religion ;).

The peace weight variance might be nasty, though one could always do a dogpile feign on probably-hated roose or cyrus.
 
Since you guys are sorting out whether my challenger II save can be saved, I moved on to the next one. For this one, I took OCC + PA.

I won by PA cyrus and then using him and his mechinf to roll until we had enough pop to win with just cathy voting for us (couldn't get others to vote me in or like him more). Eventually we beat down enough cities to have the pop.

Around the 1990's :sad:.

No OCC for this one if someone wants a competitive time. The warmonger distribution + roosevelt/cathy/cyrus and tendency toward religious distribution make this game anything but a true UN game. What this game really is, is domination -1 civ, where you butter that civ up so it votes for you. I can't see any way to get the agg AI to reliably stay off each other unless we take their cities to help world peace :devil:.
 
This one was painful, but a gratifying win nonetheless. I abused espionage in the end to sway favor to myself. I am sure a warring game would win much earlier. I thought I had this in the bag in the early 1800's, but one of my supporters took the population lead. Took about one hundred years to straighten it out.

Thank you Buffy .002 for fixing the UN/AP page to tell when the next vote is coming.
 
well, that didn't work.

I tried adding a ton of peacemongers into the game (Asoka, Gandhi, Mansa, Hatty) and won the UN secretary, but wasn't even close to a win - nearly everyone who voted for me abstained, so wasn't even first! Had less than 1/3 the votes I needed.

Oddly, my best friend the entire game? Genghis Khan
 
I think I ruined my game by trading with the first overseas AI I met, Catherine. I figured everyone would dislike Roosevelt. And they did--they wiped him out long before I got there. My only hope is to get Napoleon to friendly (by converting him to my religion and sharing war against Boudicia) and attack Boudicia then gift those cities to Napoleon, for a late 19xx finish. On my continent, GK and I eliminated Cyrus and GK is friendly. By the way, why won't my galleons go through the forts I made for a canal?

 
I think I ruined my game by trading with the first overseas AI I met, Catherine. I figured everyone would dislike Roosevelt. And they did--they wiped him out long before I got there. My only hope is to get Napoleon to friendly (by converting him to my religion and sharing war against Boudicia) and attack Boudicia then gift those cities to Napoleon, for a late 19xx finish. On my continent, GK and I eliminated Cyrus and GK is friendly. By the way, why won't my galleons go through the forts I made for a canal?

I don't think you can use forts as canals if they aren't in your territory.
 
I don't think you can use forts as canals if they aren't in your territory.

Cabert is correct. Forts function as Ports/Channels only in the presence of your Culture or your PA partner's Culture (I have verified the former, but not the latter [I rarely play with a PA partner]).

Sun Tzu Wu
 
OK, I did this one (4 down, 6 to go). And by some fluke of fate I have temporarily the fastest finish, so I feel I should share with you my learning experience.

I took 3 tries to get the win, which is the lowest for any of the games in the series so far (and I have tried all except game #9). First try was kind of just to get a feel for the opponents personalities and map type and how quick speed would affect things. To simplify things I played it as an OCC with PA's on. What I learn: don't allow PA's (ha ha I already knew this would be bad, but sometimes you just have to say 'wtf').

OCC advantage is that it is easy to get tech lead and thus easier to navigate the diplo minefields out there. The disadvantage is that you want high pop to get more votes in UN, and OCC won't do it. Also, it is hard enough getting one civ Friendly to get a PA (and you'd get those Friendly votes anyhow even w/o a PA), but with a PA you need to get the AI friendly not only with you but with your PA partner. I actually got 380 out of 420 needed votes for diplo victory, but then Roosi signs a PA with Zara and its over (space loss). I take this learning experience and turn vassals off as well. [Edit: No you idiot, you turned off Vassals because the game conditions demand it.]

Second try I wanted to see what happens if I load up with normally friendly AI in addition to the tricky ones. Ghandi, Zara, and Mansa. Problem here was (1) not enough decent land to get big without fighting, and close borders makes much tension; (2) Hard to get or keep a tech lead to Mass Media while getting high population - those friendly peacers are also tech whores. I abandon this game when I recognize the problems.

In the submitted game I chose Low Seas and added no extra AI, making plenty of room for expansion. I enabled Huts and Random Events - figuring if I am going to do well in this challenge I'll need to be lucky (i.e. I lack the skill). Huts gave me Wheel and Iron Working and some cash. Random Events gave me +1 beaker on my first library (capitol) turn after it was built; gave me Black Pearls on my clam (Capitol) in turn 20 or so, and popped Tin on a mine (also Capitol) in very early game. On the negative side, my forge burned down as I build Collosus (3pop whip of sad faces to fix), and a -1 Faux Pas late with Russia (who was at +16 Freindly anyhow), and my cow pasture got fire ants. All in all I'd say these were a GREAT BIG boost to my game, since the good happened early and the bad was easily mitigated.

I had 2 clam, corn, cows and fresh water on my plains hill capitol. Very nice. IW revealed Iron in BFC as well. And right next door #2 city I had very many green river cottages with the 3rd clam and stone (got marble in 3rd border pop of capitol).

I Oracled Metalcasting to open the Collosus. I built GLH and Collosus and Pyramids, used a GE to get GLib even though its only a 5 turn build I want chance to also grab Parthenon, which I complete successfully. GLH/Collosus enabled very good REX to get big fast and without war, keeping economy healthy.

I used a workboat start while founding Hinduism and adopting. I spread to Roosi who technically shares same landmass but far around the ice perimeter to get there (and I settle to block him and secure 4 more good cities). Cathy is also technically on same landmass, and Moscow is only like 10 tiles away... but we never have even negative modifiers for close borders since there is a 1 mountain blockage on the isthmus, and I leave my eastern plains unsettled but covered by Carthage culture.

Capitol had Oxford/Nat Epic combo. In my Taj Golden Age (enhanced by MoM), I generate 3 more GSci by switching into Pacifism (from Free Relig) at start and back to Free Relig at end.

I settled almost every GP I got... except one artist from Music used to bulb Drama, and one GSci to bulb half of Edu, and one GSci to bulb Physics to ensure I win the Free GSci. And one GE for UN rush.

I did some bonehead stuff too... like building U of Sankore 3 turns before switching to Free Religion:rolleyes: . I built a Privateer to pillage Nappy when a Frigate would have done the job (we were at war) without getting sunk by my allies. I guess I just like pirates.:p


Only Roosi ever shares my religion. I keep Cathy happy (Pleased most of game) by giving her everything she asks for and not trading with her enemy of the day. This is VERY important. I usually suck at diplo because I need to trade with some unliked AI just to keep chance at getting to Mass Media first. NOt so this game.... I was the goodies man, just handing out stuff to buy love. I had 5 ivory to trade or give away as I see fit, clams gold any resource you name it. And not to mention enough tech to balance the Roosi/Cyrus war to make sure Roosi doesn't lose (but doesn't win, either lol).

Boudica was easy... although she is annoyed (religously peeved) most of early game, she and Cathy alternate using Napoleon as the whipping boy, and I join in every time asked. I must have DOW'd Nappy at least 5 times. I only commited troops (4 Cuirs) at the very late game (after UN built from saved GE) when I saw chance to increase my pop even more, while decreasing pop of the abstainers.

I built UN in like 1765AD, and it took me a few more turns of favortie civics to get Roosi Friendly, giving me votes of Cathy, Boudi, and Roosi. My competitor was Cyrus, who was Pleased with me. I fall like 20 votes short and I stort thinking I might have to start grabbing Mongol cities (totally revamp from no military) to get the votes. I've already gifted Biology to Cathy and Boudi, but fear that Roosi will get big enough to be my competitor if I give it to him. I decided to gift Bio and then woo Cyrus if that happened - figuring that this is faster and more predictable than war. I am of course at war with Napoleon (as usual), and me and Boudi are racing each other to get the last city.

Members screen shows Green for Diplo vote, and fortunately I get vote chance before Roosi passes Cyrus. Game over, I win.

Lots of luck, and this one turned out to be pretty easy. I'm sure someone skilled would be able to beat my time by 1 or 2 centuries. But first they'll need to (a) generate a good start position (b) find the hidden resources in great locations (c) get geography to benefit them (close neighbors and terrain). Early I also let a lone warrior defend against barb archer, figuring I could quit and start anew if he lost (he won, obviously). Some combination or all of that luck and I'm sure you'll beat my time. After all, even I have made 1600AD diplo victories, and this one was no harder than any of those the way it worked out.

So guys... go out there and get lucky! ;)
 
An attempt at a pure diplomatic victory, quick speed and no vassals limit the ability any diplomation and the opponents have mutually exclusive civics limiting the bonuses you can accrue. Roosevelt added because he rarely seems to stay in his favourite civic :mischief:.

Yes, I strongly advocate that you win the game BEFORE Roosi gets Medicine, because he'll go into Environmentalism and getting him back to mercantilism is a waste of time and resources, if possible at all. (I learn this the hard way).
 
kcd swede said:
Second try I wanted to see what happens if I load up with normally friendly AI in addition to the tricky ones. Ghandi, Zara, and Mansa. Problem here was (1) not enough decent land to get big without fighting, and close borders makes much tension;

Yeah, I played some crowded starts because it seemed like crowding out the troublesome AI would be a good strategy, but I couldnt make it work either. If it wasnt quick speed, it probably would be a lot stronger.
But warfare is very difficult, early on especially, as the only reasonable early game rush unit on quick is gimped vs archers (Numidian Cavalry).

Next try will be with minimum opponents but probably not low seas, hopefully with good enough land to grab the lead going into the renaissance and then, if luck permits, a manageable diplo situation.
 
is it best to not open borders with anyone at first?

I keep getting the UN built... but people who even like me abstain. It's frustrating to get the UN built in 1550 AD and have my vote totals never come close....
 
is it best to not open borders with anyone at first?

Open Borders Diplomacy:

From a Diplomatic bonus perspective, it is best to have Open Borders at least 50t before the first UN DV Vote. One gets a +1 bonus for Open Borders after 25t and a +2 bonus for Open Borders after 50t. I'm not sure whether the Open Borders bonus goes up further (like +3 at 100t, etc. -- I usually Win or give up not long after 50t of Open Borders, so I don't really know whether the bonus keeps increasing with the no. of turns.)

I keep getting the UN built... but people who even like me abstain. It's frustrating to get the UN built in 1550 AD and have my vote totals never come close....

Diplomacy margin needed versus UN DV Opponent:

The Player needs at least +8 Diplomacy with the AI (including hidden +/- modifiers), before the AI will vote for the Player. Also, the Player must have a margin of at least 5 (maybe more than 5) Diplomacy more than his Opponent has with the same AI Voting for UN DV. Less than that and the AI will always abstain no matter how high the Player's Diplomacy is with the Voting AI.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Open Borders Diplomacy:

From a Diplomatic bonus perspective, it is best to have Open Borders at least 50t before the first UN DV Vote. One gets a +1 bonus for Open Borders after 25t and a +2 bonus for Open Borders after 50t. I'm not sure whether the Open Borders bonus goes up further (like +3 at 100t, etc. -- I usually Win or give up not long after 50t of Open Borders, so I don't really know whether the bonus keeps increasing with the no. of turns.)



Diplomacy margin needed versus UN DV Opponent:

The Player needs at least +8 Diplomacy with the AI (including hidden +/- modifiers), before the AI will vote for the Player. Also, the Player must have a margin of at least 5 (maybe more than 5) Diplomacy more than his Opponent has with the same AI Voting for UN DV. Less than that and the AI will always abstain no matter how high the Player's Diplomacy is with the Voting AI.

Sun Tzu Wu

This is very good information and thank you very much for sharing. I would like to point out that if an AI is Friendly with your opponent, say at +9 diplo, and Friendly(er) with you at say +11 diplo, that AI will NOT abstain but will instead vote FOR YOUR OPPONENT.

I say this from experience from a recent (Vanilla) game so unless its been changed for BtS I think one should be aware of this danger. (I eventually won over this AI in the UN vote at +12 versus +9 for my opponent).
 
Here's another question - how can you know who your opponent is going to be? Is there a way, other than counting up how many pop points everyone has?
 
This is very good information and thank you very much for sharing. I would like to point out that if an AI is Friendly with your opponent, say at +9 diplo, and Friendly(er) with you at say +11 diplo, that AI will NOT abstain but will instead vote FOR YOUR OPPONENT.

Thanks for the interesting counter-example to the "guideline" I provided.

Of course, in terms of winning, it doesn't matter whether an AI abstains or votes for your Opponent (assuming he doesn't have enough Votes to Win -- If he did, one wouldn't call for a UN Diplomatic Vote and potentially lose the Game). In either case, one has lost his Vote for UN DV.

I say this from experience from a recent (Vanilla) game so unless its been changed for BtS I think one should be aware of this danger. (I eventually won over this AI in the UN vote at +12 versus +9 for my opponent).

This could be explained by the +/- bonus that one doesn't see reflected in Diplomacy numbers whose absolute value might be +13 versus +8.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Thanks for the interesting counter-example to the "guideline" I provided.

Of course, in terms of winning, it doesn't matter whether an AI abstains or votes for your Opponent (assuming he doesn't have enough Votes to Win -- If he did, one wouldn't call for a UN Diplomatic Vote and potentially lose the Game). In either case, one has lost his Vote for UN DV.



This could be explained by the +/- bonus that one doesn't see reflected in Diplomacy numbers whose absolute value might be +13 versus +8.

Sun Tzu Wu

Yes, on both counts, though some really sucky players (myself especially) have on occasion called for diplo victory vote having no idea whatsoever of the outcome -- or even who the opponent would be. :lol:

One other thing I noticed is that hidden modifiers apparently do not affect what BUFFY will show you on the Members screen. I've had it showing not enough votes to win and I win (even after the win confirmed that still not enough votes for the win according to Members screen!), and I suspect that it could also have one thinking they are safe from diplo defeat and they lose anyhow.

Since the hidden modifiers are not player-available information (except maybe in some circumstances you could deduce by trial and error), I suppose it would not be fair to have them revealed in BUFFY, so I'm not complaining. Just want to alert folks that the members page poll shows a "margin of error" for a reason - but like in USA elections a few percentage in the wrong state can make a BIG difference. ;)
 
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