Challenge-I-04

Ozbenno

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While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we are running a series of ten games called the Hall of Fame Challenge Series. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings of one of the games will be counted towards the Challenge.

(*) Please read the >> HOF rules << BEFORE playing!

Settings:
  • Victory Condition: Space Colony (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
  • Difficulty: Emperor
  • Starting Era: Ancient
  • Map Size: Standard
  • Map Type: Rain Forest
  • Speed: Normal
  • Required: Aggressive AI
  • Must Not Be Checked: No Barbarians
  • Civ: Spain (Isabella)
  • Opponents: Must include Byzantium (Justinian), England (Churchill), Holy Roman Empire (Charlemange), Mali (Mansa Musa), Portugal (Joao), Russia (Stalin)
  • Version: 3.19.002 or 3.19.003
  • Date: 1st January to 30th April 2010
The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.
 
Why are these all AGG AI :sad:? That makes the early game a bit harder, but they kind of sag after that...and wonders go late.

Edit: Churchill, Mali, and Stalin are not traditionally thought of as fast expanders. Joao and Justinian definitely are though.

Of course we could always opt to just crowd them with extra AI.
 
Well.... I did it. :woohoo:
Now just 9 more challenger series games before I come back to this one and do it well.:mischief:

I added two civs extra (8 opponents), since I thought there would be too much room for AI expansion if I didn't. I could have added more (up to 10 opponents) but was afraid I would not be able to expand enough to put up a fighting chance. I chose to add Asoka and Ghandi to the mix, figuring that a couple patsies would make initial expansion by military means somewhat easier.

As it turned out, I was bordered by Mansa Musa and Asoka, but Mansa settled the iron 1 turn before I got there, and the next nearest metal was miles away. I was considering a restart, but decided to play it out to see what happens. Barbs were never a factor due to land being filled quickly.

Both neighbors adopted Confu religion (founded by Mansa) and spread it to me. Charlemagne also adopted Confu, and we had us a great big love-fest of trading. (Everything but Iron was traded... I could never get iron for less than 38 gpt plus all my happy and health resources... from any civ... so I never had iron until after cavalry came along). I had horses, which were enough to keep my power high enough to avoid getting targetted early... but everyone else had spears so they would not have been much good on offense. I had 7 cities settled (I started in lower right corner, so had blocked off enough land for backsettling two after 0AD). These had more overlap than I usually prefer, but resulted in lots of quickly-matured riverside cottages. I was therefore with the highest GNP and thus highest tech rate. And trading in the confu block really kept me in the score lead most of the way (which is unusual for me at Emperor level). Add to that the Confu relig was made the AP relig by Mansa... I had enough votes to block his relig victory attempt... and I had the U of Sankore, so I made great profit from running religions. I loved the Spi trait enabling changing back and forth from OR to Pacifism as needed.

I think I had the only stone on the map, so Stonehenge, GW, Pyramids were easy to build. As was U of Sankore. I also managed the Oracle - took metalcasting iirc-(which combined with Stonehenge) gave me many Great Priests which I settled. Thus Angor Wat was also giving me some synergy and was built. My best production and my best commerce city was simultaneously the capitol, in each case by factor of at least two. I built a 2nd academy in my number two city, but might have been better settled in Madrid. I was in Representation from very early, and didn't change until very late USuff.

I was first to Civil Service, but did not prioritize it as much as usual. Bur bonus was big, so I was there almost the hole game (until late when FS gave more).

I had cottage-spammed AND got most out of my specialists (Note, I had cows, corn and two riverside grasshills in capitol settled on stone, rest of tiles were riverside towns). So I was pretty happy about how I managed my civ. Only real drawback was that it was too small to ever really take off. Probably built too many wonders, but only the GW was superfluos, imo (and it gave me 2 GSpy which ended up being 4 stolen techs... so not so terrible anyhow).

My first war came just as I was nearing Cavalry, Asoka asks me to join against Justinian. I figured I'd join but sit out the fighting as I wait for Cavs. But I saw Justinian was about to take Madras, which if I took it back would give me iron, I sent some grens there to watch and wait. It was slow waiting for Justinian to attack -- he had to bombard defenses down to zero to beat 1 LB and 2 spears with a 21-unit stack!?!?! But I was able to take Madras. Next turn, Mansa proposed AP res to return it to Asoka, and I defy (OUCH... that really hurt). As it turns out, Asokas other culture took the iron anyhow. I took Lahore to try help with the culture fight for the iron, but the MM proposes I give Lahore back to Asoka. I tried voting no, but back to Asoka it went. And still reeling from the "villian" status, When the vote came up to return Madras to Asoka, I voted YES, it passed, and my citizens are happy again.:rolleyes:

Oddly, during that short interval with more than 7 cities, I was able to build the FP, which apparently still works after I am down to 7 again.:confused:

When I got rifles to complement my Cavs, its no more Mr Nice Guy time. I am diplomatically aided by Mansa Musa having dow'd Joao and has hands full... and Asoka is only one nearby who has no grens... so now its killin time. The war with Asoka takes long time before he will capitulate... during which I have upgraded to infantry, artillery, and then tanks (ca 1700AD). I have gained iron and have built ironworks. I may have taken peace somewhere in the middle to reload... but restarted because I needed to get Aluminum. But after the Asoka capitulation Joao's borders took over the aluminum, so Joao (who was at war almost the entire game) had to be attacked. No prob... grens/cavs versus tanks is mismatch. But time is wearing down and all I wanted was his aluminum which I now have, so time to do some AP voodoo of my own... lets end the war against kcd_swede! I think it was unanimous except for Mansa Musa... the jerk. But it passed, and now I try to just keep the peace and go for space. Note, having Asoka as vassal made me victor in AP election.:goodjob:

Around 1800AD MM gets MM and builds UN. He passes some trade resolution, then loses an election to me. I stop the nukes, because having already built some I want to keep a monopoly.

Of course, Joao isn't satisfied with letting me calmly go off to space, but attacks me again and again. Some close calls almost losing a worthless Indian city, but manage to hold him off by nuking his stack and then forcing peace.

Meanwhile, my space race required 7 casing, 6 thruster, 2 cockpits, and 2 stasis units due to espionage from I don't know where. Only 1 engine. I had all the espionage defense I could muster, even ran 100% esp slider at the end.. but just got creamed by those mysterious spies.

So if you play this one... watch your back.

In addition to wonders already mentioned... I built Taj, 3 Gorges, and Broadway. I maybe captured some obsolete ones too. I was first to Econ, Liberalism(Nationalism), Communism, Physics, and Fusion.

I went to workshops and stateprop while beelining Fusion (after satelites). Still got all space techs (ecology last) faster than I could build parts. I should have enabled thrusters and/or casings before beelining fusion, because the engine build wasn't so slow in my best city (6-7 turns?). Had a lot of time where I wasn't producing parts while waiting for the fusion miracle. But note that 3Gorges was finished at same time as Fusion, so not sure I lost many turns on this.

I enjoyed this game, but I must admit it didn't feel that much different from how I usually play. Of course, I would not have picked all/any of these opponents, but they bothered each other more than they bothered me.

One important thing I learned is the power of having common religion with several civs in the early game -- as long as you don't have to lift a finger getting it. Awesome.:king:
 
1923 for me.

I started in the top left corner of the map and had space for 4 cities before the jungle took over. Capital had 3 silver/deer/pig on a river but was production poor(ish). Ended up having horses as well so Chariots were my barb patrol.

Joao ended up being to my south so that was my priority to settle. Manged to claim of an area with Marble and Sugar as well as my 2 production cities. No-one was to the east of me so got half the map done until I got the sea to the east and useless desert to the south. The barbs donated 3 cities and I settled 10 for 13 all up.

Pyramids are great in this map, coupled with Caste System, as there is plenty of excess food, so that was my wonder priority. It goes pretty late so managed to sneak CoL from Oracle as an after-thought. Mausoleum of Maussollos is also great (as is Calendar) because I try to run 3 Golden Ages in a row while building SS parts, so I got that as well. Hanging Gardens, Shwedagon were built as well.

Diplomatically, I avoided religion at all, except when Joao asked me to swap and then I swapped out as soon as 5 turns are over (love Isabella for this). I gave in to most demands as well. Stalin was opposite corner and most people's worst enemy so was well away and easy to ignore. Wars were aplenty but I stayed out, no-one declared on me but I had 3 mass deal-cancelling events to deal with :mad:. Mansu, Justinian and Charlemange went the way of the dodo along the way.
 
My first attempt I got completely overrun by barbs, being half isloated in a corner, and my neighbour building GW...

Next try I got GW myself and cut a big chunk of land off to settle, but the sheer amount of settlers, and especially workers needed slowed me down too much. Abandoned around 1000AD because I was no where near where I wanted (although I was winning).

So I decided that the AI would have to help me develop the land, and produce my cities and workers. I crowded the map, adding Washington, Lincoln, Napoleon and Churchill and turned off vassals. Then found myself with a decent allround site with elephants (to open the war with elepult) that turned out to be almost in the exact center of the map. Stole a worker from both Churchill to the south and Washington to the north to set the tone of the game :mischief:

What followed was one of the most fun games of civ I ever played, with constant wars, backstabbing, and a ton of very close calls. Opened with elepult, progressed with maces/trebs(CR3 with citadels :smug:), then to steel to forge a bunch of cannons before trading for economics, and ended up with cavalry+infantry. In the end, I was producing enough wealth/beakers to research the end of the tech tree at 1t/tech w. Mining Inc+Cereal Mills in ~35 cities.
 
This was an interesting play. I picked up the GW and Pyramids. Use GE for Parthenon. I tried to expand peacefully for quite a while. I took most of Ghandi's land with a weak Conquestador army. Because of expansion and a lack of hammers, I was late getting Oxford and really late getting Wall Street. As it turns out, Fredrick vassalized almost all of the world. I added him to be a cream-puff.

I had one close call that I lucked out on. Diplomacy proved to be a nightmare. With all the wars, I could only maintain a longterm trade relation with Justinian. Of course Mansa Musa was a tech whore, but I didn't too much since he was a powerhouse. I was behind in tech after my first war, and of course Freddy beat me to the internet by one turn.
 
finally got one for the gauntlet!! 1931, which doesn't come close.

Had a great start, too - right in the center of the map, with some decent land around me and enough to expand.

Map creator screwed over Stalin and Joao, which ended up making things interesting. Joao got a cap with all floodplains except for 1 stone hill... so he couldnt' expand. Stalin got a 2 tile island in a lake. You can't make ships on a lake... so he was hosed. He was also invulnerable....

Had a long war with Churchill, who makes a lot of units that like getting killed.

Problem is, weariness was getting to be a pain, so I let him live.

And so I dealt with a ton of espionage, as no one much liked me. I had 3 parts sabotaged the turn I was going to launch, so it was 20 turns later than I would have liked :(

also, screwed up and missed liberalism :(

I actually think that Isabella is really good for this sort of map. Expansionist lets you build more of the workers you need, plus gives you health (which you need, since so many health resources are rare), plus spiritual allows you to jump civics a lot as you need.
 
Stalin got a 2 tile island in a lake. You can't make ships on a lake... so he was hosed. He was also invulnerable....

Until ICBMs, Tactical Nukes, Gunships and Paratroopers, right?

It doesn't seem right that an AI could start on an island in a Lake. Good thing Conquest is not the goal for this challenge.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
A surprisingly good pre 1900 finish for me on this one. The PA might have helped a little with that though :mischief:

Adding a friendly civ or 2 seems to help keep the AIs smaller and easier to deal with.
 
Just started looking at this one - no win yet after a couple of starts - but I just thought I would put a few thoughts and feelings about the game down here.

My first attempt was never meant to be a serious run for victory. I was really trying to get a feel for the type of game that would come up. I didn't add any extra civs, and didn't vary the game settings at all (Are PA's actually allowed? I guess that will come in useful if they are. Perhaps with a good space-travelling friend added to the mix: Liz or Roosie maybe)
The maps are very 'patchy'. Some heavily jungle-covered swathes, with temperate 'oases' buried in them. Then a few desert patches, and clusters of mountains.
It all went far too well for a first attempt! I was in a temperate zone over to the eastern side, and had gold, 3 food, riverside grasslands around my capital. The only things it really lacked were trees for chopping / preserving etc.
I built an empire of 6 cities before running out of usable land. Researched well and led the tech progress until the late stages when science-geek Joao cruised past me to what would have been a space victory in the mid-1900s (if I hadn't stopped by then).
Relationships between the civs were volatile. 2 got wiped. I was attacked by 2 at once, but managed to defend. It was over religious differences, so I came out of religions and was left alone after that. Stalin tried to dominate everyone, but wasn't going to do it. He did end up with 25 cities!

I found that I was lucky with copper and iron (and oil), but unlucky with coal, uranium and aluminium.

I would like to get the same start, but with a few added civs, and PAs enabled.
Having just tried another start with 3 added civs, but deciding to settle in a more jungle-covered area that had stone, I don't rate that situation. You really need the gold, silver or gems to keep the early tech rate high.

Let's see how it goes.
 
I think you really need to kill at least one civ and take his cities. Otherwise, your teching drops off near the end.
Well, we'll have to see. You may be right - and if you are it will make things more difficult for me.
My normal style of play is such that I set myself up for either violence or science. I find it difficult to get a balance of both. (I do manage a bit of war sometimes in a basically research-oriented game, but usually a very limited time period. Early rush usually)

I'm hopeful, having seen that the two current quickest games for this challenge have ended up with only 6 and 7 cities!
 
The two current quickest games for this challenge have ended up with only 6 and 7 cities!

I believe you got this from the save info histogram for cities. This only reflects the number of cities built by a civ. I loaded the save and see that hhhawk had 15 cities. Fluroscent's post above said he had about 35 cities.

I have found in games where I had 6 to 9 cities at the end that I have a major drop off in tech rate. I would race to currassiers or cannons and rush a neighbor.
 
My first attempt was never meant to be a serious run for victory. I was really trying to get a feel for the type of game that would come up. I didn't add any extra civs, and didn't vary the game settings at all (Are PA's actually allowed? I guess that will come in useful if they are. Perhaps with a good space-travelling friend added to the mix: Liz or Roosie maybe)

Permanent Alliance option may be selected:

Yes, Permanent Alliance option may be selected, except when the Challenge Game setup specifically prohibits PA. I think there is at least one Game in the Challenge Series I that prohibits PA, but its not this particular Challenge. I just checked the setup on post #1 and the Challenge Series Game #4 Results page and both agree that options selected and not selected must be:

Required: Aggressive AI
Must Not Be Checked: No Barbarians

Since Permanent Alliance is optional in regard to HoF Rules, you may select it or not select it as you see fit.

Prospective PA partners:

None of the required Opponents would make good PA partners. However, Stalin has a nice unique building, Research Institute, that comes with two free Scientists and replaces the Laboratory.

Roosevelt may make a good PA Partner, but Elizabeth may be inclined to follow a Cultural Victory path.

A Rule of Thumb for Space Colony PA Partner: Avoid AI Leaders that are inclined to follow a Cultural Victory path. An AI Leader will follow the Cultural path when his Culture value is 10 or higher. An AI Leader's Culture value (starts at 0) is determined as follows:
1) When Aggressive AI is selected subtract 3.
2) Add 4 for each of the following traits, Spiritual, Philosophical, Creative, Financial, and Industrious.
3) Subtract 3 for Theocracy Favorite Civic.
4) Add 1 for each Holy City controlled.
5) Game adds a random value between 0 and 6, inclusive.

Good PA partner choices:

With Aggressive AI selected, AI Leaders with Philosophical or Industrious traits, but not another of the five traits mentioned above. Note that the Culture value is 4 - 3 = 1. Add 1 for maybe founding just 1 Holy City and pick 6 (worst case) for the random factor and the Culture value is still 8 max (still below 10). AI Leaders lacking all the five traits mentioned above are super safe to use (they would literally need to found all seven Religions and roll unlucky 6 to get a Culture value of 10 = -3 (AAI) +7 (Holy Cities) +6 (random factor).

Without Aggressive AI selected, AI Leaders with even one of the five traits mentioned above are not safe to use (depending on the random factor). AI Leaders with Theocracy as a favorite civic are still safe with up to one of the five traits mentioned above. Otherwise, only AI Leaders lacking all the five traits mentioned above are safe to use.

For Space Colony Victory, I like:

Frederick (Production Monster = Flavor "Production 10" - maximum possible lean towards Production focus)
Roosevelt (Flavor "Production 5" - second highest lean towards Production focus)
Augustus (Flavor "Production 5" - second highest lean towards Production focus)
(I don't recall any one succeeding with Augustus, but he looks good on paper ;).)

PA partners known to work well for a Space Colony Victory include (given the source of this list, me, don't depend on it too much):

Asoka
Frederick
Lincoln
Victoria
Roosevelt

Crazy (like a fox) PA partner idea:

Since the required AI Leaders have low to middle Peace Weights, one could try lower Peace Weight PA partners such as all three Russian Leaders with their nice Research Institute (Stalin, Peter and Catherine). In this case, bee-line Super Conductor via Refrigeration and gift these Technologies to your prospective PA partner. Of the three Russian Leaders, Peter has the best traits (Philosophical and Expansive). Recall someone recently winning a Space Colony Victory with Peter as a PA Partner, so it definitely can be done. The Research Institute also includes the standard Laboratory's +50% Production bonus for building Space Ship parts, so its a Win-Win to get them early. The Research Institute's two free Scientists will help compensate for your PA partner's switch from Noble Research rate down to Emperor Research rate plus the PA penalty that increases the number of Beakers per Technology on the order of +33%.

The maps are very 'patchy'. Some heavily jungle-covered swathes, with temperate 'oases' buried in them. Then a few desert patches, and clusters of mountains.
It all went far too well for a first attempt! I was in a temperate zone over to the eastern side, and had gold, 3 food, riverside grasslands around my capital. The only things it really lacked were trees for chopping / preserving etc.
I built an empire of 6 cities before running out of usable land. Researched well and led the tech progress until the late stages when science-geek Joao cruised past me to what would have been a space victory in the mid-1900s (if I hadn't stopped by then).
Relationships between the civs were volatile. 2 got wiped. I was attacked by 2 at once, but managed to defend. It was over religious differences, so I came out of religions and was left alone after that. Stalin tried to dominate everyone, but wasn't going to do it. He did end up with 25 cities!

I found that I was lucky with copper and iron (and oil), but unlucky with coal, uranium and aluminium.

I would like to get the same start, but with a few added civs, and PAs enabled.
Having just tried another start with 3 added civs, but deciding to settle in a more jungle-covered area that had stone, I don't rate that situation. You really need the gold, silver or gems to keep the early tech rate high.

Let's see how it goes.

Isabella is a nice Leader for a Rainforest Map which usually has a rather limited number of Resources types, but usually plenty of each type. Her Expansive trait will help providing +2 Health throughout the entire Game. Since there is plenty of each type of Resource, focus on a Corporation could be a viable part of a winning Strategy. By setting the Map Type to Great Plains temporarily and setting Sea Level to Low and then going back to Rainforest, I think than can increase the number of Fish and Clam Tiles enough that together with Rice could make Sid's Sushi viable on a Rainforest Map.

Must have Rainforest synergy with National Park:

Rainforest will generate huge amounts of wonderful Jungles that can be turned into 20 Jungle Preserves around a City founded deep enough into the Jungle. After the National Park is built, one will have 20 free Specialists working presumably as Scientists. This works best when running Representation so each Scientist generates 6 base Beakers rather then just 3 base Beakers. Be sure to set up this City very early and build Library, University, Observatory and Laboratory as they become available. If one hasn't constructed Oxford University elsewhere, consider building it here. Definitely construct an Academy once National Park is completed. Pig Resources can be improved here to good advantage, since each Pig Pasture can support two non-free Scientists up to the Health Cap.

Well, I've over stayed my visit here. Hope the above is of some help.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I believe you got this from the save info histogram for cities. This only reflects the number of cities built by a civ. I loaded the save and see that hhhawk had 15 cities. Fluroscent's post above said he had about 35 cities.

I have found in games where I had 6 to 9 cities at the end that I have a major drop off in tech rate. I would race to currassiers or cannons and rush a neighbor.

Don't get too focused on number of Cities or think that rushing a neighbor is the only way to Win. There are good alternatives to rushing a neighbor and having a huge empire. Good diplomacy and trading partners can help keep one up with the AI Researching Wave. One just needs to complete a Technology that very few if any AI completes and trade it for Technologies the AIs favor.

You must include Mansa Musa (already required for this Challenge per the setup) just for his willingness to immediately trade every Technology he completes, except when he occasional holds back when building a related World Wonder, etc. Wang Kon is another good AI Leader to include, since if one misses a chance to get a Technology trade via Mansa Musa (wipe out on the first Research Wave), you often get a second chance with Wang Kon (catch the second Research Wave, if I may continue the surfing analogy). However, Wang Kong will be not be as eager to trade as Mansa Musa, the "Technology Trading Monster".

I grant you that an early rush well done is very hard to beat via peaceful means and often simply can't be beat (Quechua rush for example). Remember that AgedOne is more interested in a Peaceful Win and is not so focused on getting into the top three places.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
@Sun Tzu Wu
Wow. Thanks for the very comprehensive post!
I'll have a more detailed read of this tonight (Just off to work now).
While I was on my EQM trail last year, I had quite a bit of experience with getting the Space Col victories - some good and some bad experiences.
But some of this information I have never read before. In particular the AI decision to go cultural or not. This was something I hit a few times before in games where I aimed for a PA, got one, and then found my partner was totally unwilling to build the SS parts. Now I can see one of the reasons behind it.
Thanks.
 
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