AgedOne
Emperor
Ouch. That shows what happens when I don't do a little research.
Yes, I believed the graphs. Now, I loaded both of their final saves and counted the cities. As you said, it seems to be a graph of cities they built only.
Challenge-I-04
- Thread starter Ozbenno
- Start date
Ouch. That shows what happens when I don't do a little research.
Yes, I believed the graphs. Now, I loaded both of their final saves and counted the cities. As you said, it seems to be a graph of cities they built only.
AgedOne
Emperor
I've just read this through carefully, and I'd have to say if ever a single post has inspired me to have another go - but try a few things differently - this is it!
I'm not a novice by any means, so a lot of the points you've covered in here are things I know about and often try to implement. Other things are quite an eye-opener to me however.
As I mentioned above, I had never seen it described anywhere what makes an AI go for a cultural victory. Now you've explained the theory, it has sent me back over a number of games I played last year trying for exactly this - a space colony victory with a PA. Funnily enough I chose Mansa Musa for my prospective partner in several of the games, and without the Aggressive AI setting he must be one of the worst possible choices! He gets +8 for starters. Give him a holy city and an average-sized +3 random factor and you're right up there at +12. Amazingly, I can find 2 of my EQM games where this actually worked out fine. What a tight-rope I was walking.
I have had some more expected successes with Roosevelt as my partner. Never Augustus. I checked.
I'm intrigued by the idea of choosing someone truly unsuitable for culture and getting a workable PA. Superconductor tech is a vital one for the space race, as you mention. I agree, and usually emphasise it in my own plans. The idea of using it as a means of hooking your partner into a PA, and giving them something to help them start serious spaceship work, is really quite tempting. The thing I would have to see is if one of those non-cultural types is also a civ that I can keep friendly with me, avoid them getting wiped by other AI, and keep them up enough in research to be useful to me.
The last point, about rainforest-national park synergy, I like too. Many of my HoF space attempts have involved leaving a lot of trees uncut and building the national park. Jungle trees are as good (though the production loss is a problem). But what you say really makes me want to start my next game with a positive plan for a Nat Park city.
Thanks again for being prepared to put all of these thoughts down for others to take advantage of.
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City count in the HoF Graph is not total Cities, but only Settler built Cities. I didn't realize this either. No wonder some of those Cites graphs I've looked at seemed strange. I guess I never looked at enough Cities Graphs to deduce this Issue with them.
Sun Tzu Wu
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I sincerely hope you get a very good, early Win with a Jungle Preserve National Park. It is an amazing way to get up to 20 free Specialists. You can even employ the trick of initially building Railroaded Lumber Mills on any Forests for building the National Park and also build in the same Tile a Forest Preserve and stopping 1t short of completing it. After National Park is completed each Lumber Mill in the BFC can be switched to a Forest Preserve via a single Worker turn. One needs only a few Forests in the BFC for this to be effective. Otherwise, one could use a Great Engineer to build National Park in 1t.
You are most welcome! I actually get more enjoyment out of helping my fellow Players than playing and Winning or Losing a few more Games.
Sun Tzu Wu
We've discussed this in last month's OCC gauntlet and originally over a year ago in another gauntlet when I dug into CvPlayerAI.cpp. You've got it right, except the code has a bug which only gives +2 to industrial leaders instead of the intended +4.
Have fun!
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Congratulations on your analysis of CvPlayerAI.cpp for the purpose of determining the likeliness of any particular AI Leader to follow a Cultural Victory path. (I'm not sure you made that clear in the G-Major 71 thread.) Again, Thank you!
However, I didn't want to mention this bug for four reasons:
1) I wasn't entirely able to convince myself that the bug actually exists. Some of the C++ code in CvPlayerAI.cpp is pretty badly written, especially where 4 is added to the "Culture Value" for the five Cultural Traits.
2) The bug might be fixed in a future BtS release. Well, possibly not with Civ V on the horizon.
3) I don't like Strategy discussions to get mixed up with bug discussions. Although I'm sure that this bug is far too trivial to be seriously considered exploit by anyone, I still feel uneasy about using the fact of its existence in any Strategy discussion.
4) I prefer to pretend that it doesn't exist. I guess that makes me an ostrich with its head in the sand.
Sun Tzu Wu
Thx, I appreciate the acknowledgment. I actually did do the research on that one. I rarely go into the code because it takes the "mystery" out of the AI behavior. It also sheds too much light on how dumb they really are.
ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
Dynamic
But not hurry
AI aren't strong enough for PA on Emperor level.
Good date for this setting is 16xxAD. I have tryed it once (bad-concentrated) but haven't crossed 1700AD.
Good date for this setting is 16xxAD. I have tryed it once (bad-concentrated) but haven't crossed 1700AD.
AgedOne
Emperor
Well, I got my victory in the end!
1910AD, so (assuming no blunder and it is an admissible game) not superb but not awful either. I'm happy, anyway.
It was quite an enthralling ride, and there were several points where I could have failed.
I set out for a win with the help of a PA right from the outset. I had added Roosevelt, Elizabeth and Frederick as potential allies. What I hadn't intended was to be situated right next to Stalin, and spend half the game looking warily at him, waiting for signs of his military being aimed in my direction, and pacifying him from time to time.
Oddly, I played a part in the elimination of both Liz and Fred - who I had added to the mixture myself! Liz was a weakling state that was about to be destroyed, so I joined in when I saw Roosevelt declare on her, as he was my main prospective ally and I wanted to get as many turns as possible in defensive pact or shared wars. Then Fred was getting blitzed by Stalin and I joined in at the point where everybody dogpiled him.
It did cross my mind that Stalin himself could make a very peculiar but possible choice of ally. I would provide the science and he could bring the production capability. I mulled the idea over for a while, keeping both him and Roosie pleased with me. Eventually I realised that Stalin was just too dangerous a leader to hitch myself to. Not so bad once you finally get the PA, but during the run-up to it, he is always attacking the wrong people, such as Churchill (large military and right next door to me!). So in the end I chose Roosevelt. He was much more stable, and getting the PA with him was a walk in the park, relatively speaking.
Churchill was on his way to becoming the world's largest power, and was busily dismantling Stalin's empire. Choosing my moment carefully, when Stalin's power was gone, I joined in the final city-grab and had a few last cities for myself. This took me up to about 10 cities, while Roosevelt had something like 12. This put us fractionally ahead of Churchill.
There were only 5 empires left in the world. Me+Roosie, Churchill, Joao, Justinian and Charlemagne. Liz, Fred, Mansa and now Stalin had all met untimely ends.
It was evidently going to be a space race, as opposed to a stroll. There were several of us all completing our Apollo programmes around the same time. I knew that we would win the tech race, though, so it wasn't going to be a worry.
But then the war came and anything could have happened!
I had been looking at Churchill and trying to gauge carefully whether he would take on myself + Roosie combined. But it wasn't him who declared on us. No, it was Charlemagne - much nearer to Roosevelt than myself - and never a friend to either of us - who suddenly started a war. I spent a couple of turns being unconcerned, and then saw a message about enemy units being sighted! After investigation, I realised I was in big trouble. A stack of 48 units had travelled across from South-east to me in the North-west. I had better units available (tanks, mech infs ... against his infantry, sams, cavalry - but stunningly no artillery!) but not enough of them. And another smaller stack was approaching.
It was touch and go, and I had to give up one outlying city in order to defend my capital, but I survived with Roosevelt's help. Possibly the key was losing the one city, as I could then direct Roosevelt to aim his attacks at that city, bringing all of his forces closer to me. Once there, he wiped up most of Charlemagne's stacks. I did the rest with my newly-built forces.
A couple of other points about this. The darned UN - which we built but then lost the vote to Churchill - had forced Free Speech on us, meaning I couldn't run Nationhood and draft units.
The other one is the monumental AI stupidity of trekking the length of the map with 50 units to attack me but not bringing any artillery. My artillery, plus some air units, really made the difference. I damaged his units to the point where he appeared to be backing them off to heal, but ran into Roosevelt's forces arriving.
That was the closest point to defeat that I think I came. If Churchill had decided to join in during that, the game would have been over. If Roosevelt had simply attacked Charlie's heartlands and not come over to help me, I might have been wiped. We were close to finishing the spaceship at this point, but I might not have made it to see the launch!
The war over, it went much easier, and the tech race had been won comfortably by my team. Always nice to get the internet, just to avoid someone spoiling the party by getting it themselves. Then first to fusion.
All the way through the alliance, it was evident that I was simply the researcher, and an occasional builder of ss parts. Roosevelt jumped in and built the rest without being asked to, which made a change.
Oh. Espionage! I got mauled by somebody (Churchill maybe, or Justinian or Charlie) just as we were starting to put the first parts on the spaceship. At that point I had only a couple of spies stationed, and I lost part after part to sabotage! My espionage ratings were very one-sided. I noticed Churchill had something like a 20,000 to 10,000 against me! The others were similar, if not quite so extreme. I built spies like crazy and it certainly dried up - whether due to these defenders or the steadily reducing esp points I don't know. It was very frustrating for a while.
But happy in the end. (Assuming it's accepted...)
1910AD, so (assuming no blunder and it is an admissible game) not superb but not awful either. I'm happy, anyway.
It was quite an enthralling ride, and there were several points where I could have failed.
I set out for a win with the help of a PA right from the outset. I had added Roosevelt, Elizabeth and Frederick as potential allies. What I hadn't intended was to be situated right next to Stalin, and spend half the game looking warily at him, waiting for signs of his military being aimed in my direction, and pacifying him from time to time.
Oddly, I played a part in the elimination of both Liz and Fred - who I had added to the mixture myself! Liz was a weakling state that was about to be destroyed, so I joined in when I saw Roosevelt declare on her, as he was my main prospective ally and I wanted to get as many turns as possible in defensive pact or shared wars. Then Fred was getting blitzed by Stalin and I joined in at the point where everybody dogpiled him.
It did cross my mind that Stalin himself could make a very peculiar but possible choice of ally. I would provide the science and he could bring the production capability. I mulled the idea over for a while, keeping both him and Roosie pleased with me. Eventually I realised that Stalin was just too dangerous a leader to hitch myself to. Not so bad once you finally get the PA, but during the run-up to it, he is always attacking the wrong people, such as Churchill (large military and right next door to me!). So in the end I chose Roosevelt. He was much more stable, and getting the PA with him was a walk in the park, relatively speaking.
Churchill was on his way to becoming the world's largest power, and was busily dismantling Stalin's empire. Choosing my moment carefully, when Stalin's power was gone, I joined in the final city-grab and had a few last cities for myself. This took me up to about 10 cities, while Roosevelt had something like 12. This put us fractionally ahead of Churchill.
There were only 5 empires left in the world. Me+Roosie, Churchill, Joao, Justinian and Charlemagne. Liz, Fred, Mansa and now Stalin had all met untimely ends.
It was evidently going to be a space race, as opposed to a stroll. There were several of us all completing our Apollo programmes around the same time. I knew that we would win the tech race, though, so it wasn't going to be a worry.
But then the war came and anything could have happened!
I had been looking at Churchill and trying to gauge carefully whether he would take on myself + Roosie combined. But it wasn't him who declared on us. No, it was Charlemagne - much nearer to Roosevelt than myself - and never a friend to either of us - who suddenly started a war. I spent a couple of turns being unconcerned, and then saw a message about enemy units being sighted! After investigation, I realised I was in big trouble. A stack of 48 units had travelled across from South-east to me in the North-west. I had better units available (tanks, mech infs ... against his infantry, sams, cavalry - but stunningly no artillery!) but not enough of them. And another smaller stack was approaching.
It was touch and go, and I had to give up one outlying city in order to defend my capital, but I survived with Roosevelt's help. Possibly the key was losing the one city, as I could then direct Roosevelt to aim his attacks at that city, bringing all of his forces closer to me. Once there, he wiped up most of Charlemagne's stacks. I did the rest with my newly-built forces.
A couple of other points about this. The darned UN - which we built but then lost the vote to Churchill - had forced Free Speech on us, meaning I couldn't run Nationhood and draft units.
The other one is the monumental AI stupidity of trekking the length of the map with 50 units to attack me but not bringing any artillery. My artillery, plus some air units, really made the difference. I damaged his units to the point where he appeared to be backing them off to heal, but ran into Roosevelt's forces arriving.
That was the closest point to defeat that I think I came. If Churchill had decided to join in during that, the game would have been over. If Roosevelt had simply attacked Charlie's heartlands and not come over to help me, I might have been wiped. We were close to finishing the spaceship at this point, but I might not have made it to see the launch!
The war over, it went much easier, and the tech race had been won comfortably by my team. Always nice to get the internet, just to avoid someone spoiling the party by getting it themselves. Then first to fusion.
All the way through the alliance, it was evident that I was simply the researcher, and an occasional builder of ss parts. Roosevelt jumped in and built the rest without being asked to, which made a change.
Oh. Espionage! I got mauled by somebody (Churchill maybe, or Justinian or Charlie) just as we were starting to put the first parts on the spaceship. At that point I had only a couple of spies stationed, and I lost part after part to sabotage! My espionage ratings were very one-sided. I noticed Churchill had something like a 20,000 to 10,000 against me! The others were similar, if not quite so extreme. I built spies like crazy and it certainly dried up - whether due to these defenders or the steadily reducing esp points I don't know. It was very frustrating for a while.
But happy in the end. (Assuming it's accepted...)
Dynamic
But not hurry
Strange thing but I have played peacfully. No Worker stealing, No wars for cities capturing. Just 1 accident when Churchill dow me with 2 units (killed). Of course, AI fought between itself.
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