Challenge-I-05

[Ozbenno]

While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we are running a series of ten games called the Hall of Fame Challenge Series. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings of one of the games will be counted towards the Challenge.

(*) Please read the >> HOF rules << BEFORE playing!​

Settings:

• Victory Condition: Domination (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
• Difficulty: Emperor
• Starting Era: Ancient
• Map Size: Standard
• Map Type: Lakes
• Speed: Epic
• Required: Aggressive AI
• Must Not Be Checked: No Barbarians
• Civ: Portugal (Joao)
• Opponents: Must include Celt (Brennus), Egypt (Hatshepsut), Persia (Darius), Rome (Augustus Caesar), Sumeria (Gilgamesh), Zulu (Shaka)
• Version: 3.19.002 or 3.19.003
• Date: 1st January to 30th April 2010

The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.

 

[Ozbenno]

Early warfare is a bit trickier against AI with unique units that are available early and the lakes map script should make the resources available to them. Joao's UU won't be of any help though.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You're being nice, putting persia in there instead of native america .

 

[TheMeInTeam]

This was a lot harder than expected. I slogged out to a 1480 AD finish. I doubt the winner will have a BC finish, though I think it can be done faster than I managed.

 

[shulec]

I think it can be done faster than I managed.

True dat!

Likewise, I think it can be done faster than I managed.

I thought this one was pretty enjoyable. I really hate constant war games, but I decided to set up a financial network first, so I really didn't have an economy crash. This clearly delayed my finish by 100-200 years, but I hate just barely getting by.

What I really loved about this game was my FU diplomacy. I am tired of tip-toeing around everybody as needed in the culture, diplomacy, and space challenge games.

I think aggressive AI helps in this one as they teched really slowly.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

And Joao, of the Portugese, in a cold world with much water, founded a city in a valley between hills, by a river, with 2 lodes of sparkly rocks near, and a 3rd close.

And when he founded the city, he found more hills and rice paddies and it was good.

And he built workers and learned how to farm the rice and chop the trees.

And the exploring warrior met many other people - 10 other tribes lived in these crowded lands, as well as dangerous animals.

And the warriors stole workers from the celts.

And they found copper to the south, but no horses, except those near Asoka's capitol. And so Joao founded 2 more cities, one near the copper and stone, so as to create a great wall to protect the portugese from the small barbarian tribes he foresaw in the future of the world, and so to create better forces of war to take Delhi from the indian archers.

And years passed.

And then 4 axes and a spear took the city of Delhi and it's wonder, circle of rocks, which magically created spires of rocks in every city.

And then joao learned riding on horses and attacked Asoka again and took another city and Brennus did as well.

And then Joao built peacefully for a short period, for he much desired Brennuses lands.

And then Joao realized that Augustus was going to attack Brennus, so he waited and learned feudalism. And then Augustus and his mighty praetorians attacked Brennus and then Joao attacked Brennus when his attention was elsewhere. And Joao's horsemen and catapults and elephants and axemen took 2 cities and razed another and Brennus asked to become a vassal and be under Joao's protection. And Joao took him in.

And Joao greatly desired Hatsepshut's cities and attacked and took 3 cities and brennus took Thebes and Hatsepshut became Joao's vassal as well.

And soon Elizabeth and Gilgamesh and Gandhi were all Joao's vassal. And while war raged against Gandhi, Joao got greedy and greatly desired Roman lands and the wonders of Rome - Sistine Chapel most of all, for that would cause culture borders to expand faster.

And so he declared war, as Rome was on the other side of his vassal Brennus. But Rome was strong and large stacks of Roman praetorians and macemen and knights invested Vienne and took and and Joao feared losing his vassal and threw strong forces at the roman advance. And Joao took Vienne back, but his greed for dominance was strong and he did not give the city back to his vassal. Which was mean.

And Joao continued his attacks on Rome and took 4 Roman cities before Augustus capitulated. And then Joao attacked Persia and Zulu. And then Joao started to build settlers, for cities on the frozen ice, to gain domination.

And Persia brought Frederick into the war, but Frederick was a terrible ally and lost 2 cities, one of which he had taken from Gandhi years before, before he capitulated.

And Shaka lost a city, and Darius lost 2 to Portugal and one to Egypt and he capitulated. And with 13 useless cities on the ice, Shaka sued for peace, though did not capitulate, and Joao achieved a domination victory in 1390 AD.

I dunno - this is a hard game. I think I razed more cities than I mentioned - mainly barbs. I didn't mention the 9 turns I spent chasing the GA from music, which I missed by 2 turns.

I had a bunch of dyes as well as the gems.

The vassals were awesome for happiness, too - I spent most of the game whipping cats and trebs, and never did have enough of them - lack of those held back my conquest a lot.

Was fun... but hard.

I think I got the foes right, so it should make the list.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Question: are any GP's other than merchants useful in this? Other than maybe setting off a GA, a scientist isn't that helpful. No wonders are that useful, a shrine doesn't generate enough income. Artists are great, but slavery is too powerful and you can't get theaters till late.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Question: are any GP's other than merchants useful in this? Other than maybe setting off a GA, a scientist isn't that helpful. No wonders are that useful, a shrine doesn't generate enough income. Artists are great, but slavery is too powerful and you can't get theaters till late.

Great Generals? Joao II's imperialistic trait provides +100% Great Generals.

This same trait suggests Domination by spamming Settlers earlier rather than later.

------

Great Merchants are the obvious choice until there's no one left with Open Borders.

If you are turning off Research after Iron Working, Great Scientists will be useless, but do you really want to turn off access to more technically advanced units?

Around the era of Code of Laws, Great Artists are a bit too expensive to generate to use simply to bring a captured City out of anarchy immediately.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[AutomatedTeller]

well, yes, generals are very important. I found it impossible and not all that important to set up a GP farm, is all. I got a spy (for the wall), 2 GS which were settled and a GM. and something like 7 generals.

I found that research to guilds and engineering was very good. I went to nationalism and mil trad and paper, and those weren't very useful, at all.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

well, yes, generals are very important. I found it impossible and not all that important to set up a GP farm, is all. I got a spy (for the wall), 2 GS which were settled and a GM. and something like 7 generals.

I found that research to guilds and engineering was very good. I went to nationalism and mil trad and paper, and those weren't very useful, at all.

I would rarely settle Great Scientists before:

1) Having a Great Scientist construct an Academy in the Capital.

2) Using other Great Scientists to bulb Technologies that help improve Military Technology lead (or at least parity with the AIs).

The Academy doesn't have to be constructed by the first Great Scientist either. The first Great Scientist could bulb an early technology like Philosophy or maybe Mathematics or Alphabet though Mathematics/Alphabet is a rather small Technology to be using a Great Scientist on.

After building the Academy in the Capital and bulbing important technologies, Great Scientists can be settled in the Capital where Oxford University might eventually be built or they can be used for starting Golden Ages.

To use Great Scientists effectively for bulbing, determine your Technology path so the Great Scientists can bulb (completely or almost completely) moderately large Technologies like Mathematics, Alphabet, Philosophy, Optics, possibly Metal Casting & Engineering, Paper, Education, Printing Press, Chemistry, Astronomy, and finally Scientific Method. It often takes 2 or 3 Great Scientists bulb Large Technologies like Physics, Biology, Electricity, Fission and Ecology, so its often more practical to bulb just one Great Scientist on these and finish the research via the Research slider and normal Scientists.

The BUFFY module has a very nice bulbing prediction feature where you select the Technologies in the order you plan to get them and see at each point which Technology a Great Scientist will bulb. It will still be a good idea to look at the Great Scientist bulbing priority to determine which Technologies must be avoided or must be researched to allow a Great Scientist to bulb desirable Technologies in its priority list.

It may be possible to leap into the Military Technology lead, turn off Research, spam Military and Settler units and next spam just Settlers to grab Domination. Settlers, Macemen and Trebuchets should suffice to get Domination. Be sure to build Cities in any open (free of foreign Culture), reasonably good locations (including distance from Capital) throughout the Game; don't waste the imperialistic Hammer bonus +50% (1.5x) for Settlers.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Is an academy all that valuable - I mean, in a game like this, where you are generally running 30 or 40%? I was able to get up to 70% or 80% when I'd get a merchant and in the very beginning - but once I started conquering and vassalizing, it was really hard.

This game, I only built 2 settlers before I started conquering - I had high water, max opponents and a cold world, so we were pretty jammed in. In retrospect, I'm not sure that was a great move - in particular, high seas or cold. I'm not sure that, on a map like this, low water isn't better. You need more land to get domination, but then, at high water, I found that most of my cities had water in them, anyway. I vassalized 8 of my 10 opponents and still had to plop down a bunch of settlers late.

Oh - that's another question - are you better off conquering people vs. vassalizing them?

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Is an academy all that valuable - I mean, in a game like this, where you are generally running 30 or 40%? I was able to get up to 70% or 80% when I'd get a merchant and in the very beginning - but once I started conquering and vassalizing, it was really hard.

What should a Warmonger do with Great Scientists:

I agree that an Academy is not a priority for this Challenge. Sorry, I was not clear enough about my suggestions for using Great Scientists. For Conquest/Domination Victories I'd prioritize Great Scientist usage as follows:

1) Bulb important Technologies

2) Construct an Academy in the Capital (try to keep the Research slider at 50% or more; just settling 2 more Great Scientists in the Capital will offset the cost of the Academy - an Academy + 2 settled Great Scientists = 1.5 * 2 * 3B = 3 * 3B = 3 settled Great Scientists).

3) Settle Great Scientists in the Capital (assuming significantly more Technologies need to be Researched for implement the Domination plan).

4) Use to (help) start a Golden Age (especially when nearly all Technologies required by the Domination plan have been completed).

This game, I only built 2 settlers before I started conquering - I had high water, max opponents and a cold world, so we were pretty jammed in. In retrospect, I'm not sure that was a great move - in particular, high seas or cold. I'm not sure that, on a map like this, low water isn't better. You need more land to get domination, but then, at high water, I found that most of my cities had water in them, anyway. I vassalized 8 of my 10 opponents and still had to plop down a bunch of settlers late.

The Domination plan and Settler spam: when and when not to spam:

One generally can get by with just one extra Settler to claim Copper and another to claim Iron and possibly a third to claim Horses. So two Settlers in the beginning is fine, but assuming one spams Settlers early enough and there remain good sites for them, it would make sense to utilize Joao II's imperialistic trait to spam "cheap" (actually cheaper) Settlers. On the other hand, Hammers going into building "cheap" Settlers can capture more mature Cities that will be at perhaps 5-10 Population after a disorder period shorter than the time needed for a Settler spawned City to grow to 5-10 Population. However, captured Cities can have huge Happiness issues until its Motherland dies rather than Capitulates (another reason to not accept Capitulation).

All I'm suggesting is look for opportunities to utilize Settlers in the early and middle Game. Don't forget that your Military production should have priority over Settler production until the War effort becomes well effortless! That's the time for ...

For Domination, always, always, always plan a Settler spam at the end. The Settler spam targeting Domination should start when you are about literally half way to Land Domination. Be sure to hit Population Domination too though!

Oh - that's another question - are you better off conquering people vs. vassalizing them?

To Vassal or Not to Vassal, that is the question; Or, Domination and Capitulation:

In general, one should almost always accept Capitulation for a Conquest Victory (unlike a Domination Victory).

However, for a Domination Victory, a Vassal's holdings are divided by two and added to your total. If you can capture all Cities of an Enemy that would Capitulate in 1-10 turns, finish off your opponent rather than accept his Capitulation. The caveat is captured Cities take 3-15 turns before they come out of Disorder, whereas a Vassal's Cities don't go into Disorder at all. This difference will matter more when closer to Domination. Personally, I'd only accept Capitulation if it would cause a Domination Victory sooner (in 1-10 turns, perhaps helped by a Settler spam).

Regardless of the Victory Condition being pursued: Never accept Capitulation when the potential Vassal may beat one to another Victory Condition like Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory, Cultural Victory, United Nations Diplomatic Victory, or Space Colony Victory.

Great Artists supporting the Domination effort:

Also, remember that a settled Great Artist will take a Captured City out of Disorder immediately. So, Great Artist production can become an important part of the Domination plan for this reason and also because it will expand the Cultural Boundary of the Captured City to Radius 4-5, causing Domination to occur much earlier than without Great Artists.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[kcd_swede]

Well, I just submitted a victory for this one (1818AD). A long hard slog, as some not-so-great general once said.

I had tried and failed this 4 times before, and let me tell you that is a painful experience on epic speed... giving up after 1000AD each time. Generally I found that Hatty and Darius are just red meat for the rest of the civs out there. For this reason, I finally turned off vassals, to avoid having to face the combined might of 3 or 4 civs at once after Guilds. I also found that using the default cylindrical world wrap ensures you have two fronts to fight on... not a good thing when you fight like I do. So since flat wrap is allowed for this map type, that's what I used to good effect.

Gold in the start, but lots of riverside cottages is what kept things going.

In all of my failures, Gilga seemed to be the monster to beat, being far away and unable to do much about. Even with tech superiority I (and my vassals, generally weak pegs) couldn't match his (and his numerous vassal's) sheer numbers.

But in this game, I felt like Skywalker when he hears Obi Wan Kenobi's ghost whispering "use the Force, Luke"... except it was more like Sun Tzu Wu whispering "Use the traits, Swede". So I set out to settle as much land as possible before making war.

So I started the game on one side of the field, with Darius close by, and the other civs (all 5) all bunched together on the far right side of the field. In between was settled by the barb nation, which made some nice cities for me and were a good source of GG's, XP, and cash. Do NOT biuld the Great Wall in this one... you'll definitely want experienced units to field when the real fighting starts, not to mention a good Heroic Epic. And you'll probably capture it from Hatty or Darius very soon anyhow. I settler spammed quite a bit at the beginning, then captured a bunch of cities from barbs, and was the largest civ, and the most tech advanced civ for pretty much the whole game. I then killed Darius while Gilga was busy taking Hatty's cities from her. Those four were in wars the whole game (Gilga, shaka, Brennus, Ceasar, -- Hatty was out pretty early. Darius about the same time to me.

I slaved a lot more than I am normally comfortable with, and used Police State (thanks to Darius' Pyramids) a whole lot too.

I was lucky enough to catch Gilga when at war with Shaka (those two topped the most powerful list). When his armies broke, it was ugly, with me and Shaka racing to see who could get the most. It was about 60:40 in Shaka's favor (after he sat out the breaking of the army part, and just went in for the mop-up). Friendly with Shaka was nice, because I needed time to get ready to take him on. He got grens before me, but I got cavs and rifles and cannons, which he never got any of. But still, he had a monster stack of 60+ knights, muskets, grens and trebs that I wasn't going to fool with. Fortunately, Rome was his target, and he left his backside open. I had 5 core Zulu cities before he got that stack back, and took peace (which I used to heal and reload). Fool him once, shame on me, fool him twice, shame on him. Yes, he kept Rome as his worst enemy and sure enough his WHEOOHRN was aimed that direction. He moved his stack east, and I sucker-punched him again for another 5 cities. This time his stack (now Cuirs) were able to retake one city, but broke themselves on the walls of Ulundi against highly promoted machine guns and cavs. The rest was mop-up. Meanwhile to the south, my second stack mopped up the old Egyptian cities and I get domination victory. Brennus and Ceasar were at war most of that time... nothing to be bothered with.

Glad its over... and I didn't have to nuke anybody. Unlike what Game 1 is turning out to be.

Anyhow... that makes 7 for me (assuming its accepted). The SB game should be next if the nuking goes as planned. Then the two I dread most... deity and AW. That should keeep me busy for the next couple months.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Well, I just submitted a victory for this one (1818AD). A long hard slog, as some not-so-great general once said.

Congratulations!

But in this game, I felt like Skywalker when he hears Obi Wan Kenobi's ghost whispering "use the Force, Luke"... except it was more like Sun Tzu Wu whispering "Use the traits, Swede". So I set out to settle as much land as possible before making war.

Thanks for the very generous and entertaining comment. I'm pleased to hear that my suggestion to use the Imperialistic trait early to spam a few Settlers was useful to your War effort.

Also, very much enjoyed the write-up of your Victory.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[kcd_swede]

Congratulations!



Thanks for the very generous and entertaining comment. I'm pleased to hear that my suggestion to use the Imperialistic trait early to spam a few Settlers was useful to your War effort.

Also, very much enjoyed the write-up of your Victory.

Sun Tzu Wu

Thank you for your strategy tips. If you have some tips for #8 and #9 I'm all ears. Those are the two I could use some caoching , though to be honest I haven't tried #9 yet and the only aspect of that one that has me really scared is the Deity level.

This challenge series is forcing me to improve my game, and it would be a lot more difficult without the players participating in the discussion threads. Also, thanks to the admins for making it possible to view the logs from published submissions.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Thank you for your strategy tips. If you have some tips for #8 and #9 I'm all ears. Those are the two I could use some caoching , though to be honest I haven't tried #9 yet and the only aspect of that one that has me really scared is the Deity level.

Just post a request for some help in the respective threads for #8 and #9 and I probably will respond with a comment or two or more.

Sun Tzu Wu