Challenge-I-07

[kcd_swede]

Turn off vassals. It also seems to be easy to get dogpiles going against him if needed, but I never seem to have him threaten victory in a military fashion. And if he does a lot of warring in the midgame, then he will not keep up in the space age tech race anyway.



Are you cottaging them? I aim for river starts as 1st priority, but ample food is critical too. I'd always use flood plains as farms, since I rely heavily on representation specialists. You are never going to be using US/FS anyway. Best to have a couple of corn/pigs or several 5 tiles. And of course plenty forests. I usually try to get forest spread on regular grass/plains tiles, so avoid roading them.
Another thing, that the northwest FP locations often lack, is a large amount of forests outside the BFC. Mass chopping those really helps getting all the critical buildings out faster (NEpic/Oxford in particular). Whenever there are no critical things to build, then the workers should be prechopping those forests. Again, avoid roading open tiles, you want as much forest spread as possible.
Stone/Marble is great too, preferably in the 3rd ring.
Gold/gems is critical for the early push to CS (bonus for slingshot, but I didnt manage to yet, thats the bad thing with Mansa).

I have been cottaging FP's. I have also experimented with cottages in favor of forest preserves on a river tile (more beakers for mature cottage than for sci specialist, but I suppose the GPP's of the specialist make up for it?). I can't see any way to deal with the happiness/health before Drama and Biology with all that excess food. Anyhow, I've tried it every way I can think of.

I will try to attach a saved game here. At this point in the game I am ready to push towards Computers for Internet. I have played out from here 4 times and lost the game in a different way each time. If yo uwonder why so much military it is because Ragnar and Isabella have been PITA's.

View attachment 240681

First variant: just push for tech and mind my own business. I get internet, first to Fusion, anyhow tight space race with Mansa, but -- Mansa kills or vassalizes everyone and wins by diplo vote as my spaceship is on the way.

Second variant: I gift his first rival (Sitting Bull) superior military tech. This slows down the war but the Mansa block is surely going to win if it continues. SB votes "no" to stop war resolution and Mansa votes yes, but the war continues. Next turn they make peace. Mansa has captured all of Ottoman lands and re-vassalizes Spain. Diplo game over.

Third variant: I really aid several of the AI (not just immediate neighbors) with gifts from an early stage with military techs for cash. This slows his military and he instead focuses on space. I would lose the space race here since he gets easy trades with them... except that someone (not me) sabotaged his stasis chamber. I launch with 2 thrusters (18 turns to landing) since as soon as he rebuilds he can launch with 5 thrusters (12 turns to landing). But he never rebuilds it because he decides war is a better bet. He does not succeed getting the vassals in time. Instead, Ghandi's 3rd city goes legendary with 5 turns to spaceship landing.


OK... Fourth variant: Sort of an attempt at fixing the immediate problem with the 3rd variant, I just start upgrading everything to rifles, and plan to raze Bombay before doing like as in the third variant. Result - As soon as Ghandi sees me with more than 3 rifles, he voluntarily vassalizes to Mansa. At this stage I think there is no way to win the game... but I forge on. I attack Ghandi... fail to raze Bombay, eventually get peace with Mansa just as his cavalry arrive. Meanwhile Ragnar attacks me with inferior units and dies and takes peace. Right after that, I have assembly line and Isabella attacks me with 18 artillery and 18 rifles. Conquest defeat.

Please note I HAVE attempted this with vassals off (several times) and the end result is that Mansa (or someone else, usually Suleiman) gets realy really big by taking over so much territory they can easily tech fast enough to enable a spaceship while I am building the last few parts, then build an entire spaceship in about 6 turns and launch.

 

[kcd_swede]

Oh, I do. I won't give up!

In my 3rd attempt, I have already built the Apollo Program, while most AIs don't even have Sci. Meth.


For now, it doesn't look too bad ...

I think I'll have to come back to this one later. It is very frustrating -- not because it seems impossible to me, but because I feel so very close each try, only to get beat a handful of turns from victory. I probably build too much useless crap in my city when I should be building wealth/research or mil units.

BTW: my victory date would probably fall between 1920AD and 1940AD if the AI didn't get there first. How in the heck did anyone win this game in 1988AD???

 

[ChrisFromLux]

In my 3rd attempt, I have already built the Apollo Program, while most AIs don't even have Sci. Meth.


For now, it doesn't look too bad ...

It is done ... a 1944AD-victory has been submitted.

I chose High Seas, Rocky climate, and added Toku and Sitting Bull to the mix as suggested by some players.


There was a lot of warring and my victory was never endangeredy, but unfortunately, from Liberalism onwards, I had to do the whole research myself as no one was able to keep up with me

 

[ChrisFromLux]

I probably build too much useless crap in my city when I should be building wealth/research or mil units.

Why are you building Wealth or Military units???

I only built the Key-Wonders, the 5 National Wonders and their prerequisites, the 4 -buildings and a barracks, a few units and a lot of Research!

When my ship was launched, the city was defended by 4 Chariots, 1 Spy and 4 Workers

 

[Fluroscent]

I have also experimented with cottages in favor of forest preserves on a river tile (more beakers for mature cottage than for sci specialist, but I suppose the GPP's of the specialist make up for it?)

Not just the GPP, but the overall yields are superior.
If we compare the output with resulting beakers after the bureau bonus(assuming 100%, levee, PP, environmentalism). Grass forest preserve on river yields 2310.53 and a happy face (and health, which is sometimes useful before NPark), while the grass town yields 21.59

 

[kcd_swede]

Why are you building Wealth or Military units???

I only built the Key-Wonders, the 5 National Wonders and their prerequisites, the 4 -buildings and a barracks, a few units and a lot of Research!

When my ship was launched, the city was defended by 4 Chariots, 1 Spy and 4 Workers

Surely you mean granary not barracks, right?
I'd love to have a game that never required self-defense of any kind. In fact, my very first try i HAD ONE. Result: conquest defeat in 500AD or so.

Of course, if you get squished against a culture-intent Ghandi and lose half your BFC... you could consider a temple/catherdal, right?

 

[kcd_swede]

Not just the GPP, but the overall yields are superior.
If we compare the output with resulting beakers after the bureau bonus(assuming 100%, levee, PP, environmentalism). Grass forest preserve on river yields 2310.53 and a happy face (and health, which is sometimes useful before NPark), while the grass town yields 21.59

Environmentalism? What's that? Maybe I should give it a try some day. I've just done the simple test of shifting a sci specialist to mature cottage and seen the city beaker yeild go up by about 1.5 per turn. But like I said... does this game even have a civic called environmentalism? (Really, +6 health per city doesn't sound so attractive...)
Jeez I really get stuck in my ways. Perhaps that's why the outcome doesn't vary....

 

[Fluroscent]

Yeah it is obviously not the health bonus we are going for here (NP and all..), but rather the +2 from forest preserves, which means, say, 20 if working 10 preserves (I believe I had 12 in my game)
FM will only net 4-6 from the extra trade route in comparison.

 

[WastinTime]

This whole game is about getting Biology around turn 150 and Medicine/Environmentalism next. +6 health? Who cares. It's the +2 commerce/forest preserve you should be looking at. Let's see...14 forests is 28 commerce. That's 42 with Bureau. With multipliers, that's at least 150 beakers/turn (after lab is in.)

 

[ChrisFromLux]

Surely you mean granary not barracks, right?
I'd love to have a game that never required self-defense of any kind.

Well, granary and barracks, in fact, to give those few anti-barb-units a 1st promotion! Maybe even a health- or happiness-building, before GT and/or NP are built ...

Of course, if you get squished against a culture-intent Ghandi and lose half your BFC... you could consider a temple/catherdal, right?

Ahem, if you don't take a start where your 1st neighbor is only a few tiles away, I don't see how you can get cultural problems; with early library and academy, plus some early wonders (Oracle, Pyramids and/or GLibrary) and the Holy Confu city you get with your CS-Slingshot, you should have more than enough culture ...

 

[kcd_swede]

Thanks for the tips. I'm a little burned out from OCC at the moment, but when I get back to this I should have some better strategy to work with. Thanks a lot!

 

[kcd_swede]

Well... I just HAD to try out the environmentalism... and guess what? It worked. Thanks a lot everyone who gave me suggestions. I'm really learning a lot.

One teensey weensey problem, though... I accidently played in BUFFY.001 so it won't count for the Series. :suicide:

Oh well... now that I know how to do it, I'm sure I can do even better than the 1956AD (Yes, Ragnar DOW'd me while I have 2 space parts left, delaying me at least 10 turns).

 

[kcd_swede]

Did it again! This time in right MOD. Let's see if I didn't screw up some other setting now.

1936AD finish... about 1 turn ahead of the AI. Got lucky on one dioplo VC vote while all remaining civs were in one massive interlocking Defense pact. Forgot to deny environmentalism as global civic so lost some pop on my worskshops but not any turns. Just before launch my DP put me at war with Saladin who was lobbing tact nukes all over the place, but fortunately none on me before I could buy peace. This one is really a nail biter. Glad to have it done (assuming its accepted). That would make 3 down, 7 to go.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

two tries, two failures.

Once, I gave away way too much tech and lost by spaceship.
Second, Suleiman won Diplomatic Victory - guess you pretty much have to build the UN.

 

[WastinTime]

Don't do the UN. He just got lucky.
Building it yourself isn't going to stop this type of defeat anyway.

 

[ChrisFromLux]

Second, Suleiman won Diplomatic Victory - guess you pretty much have to build the UN.

Did you play with 'Vassal States'?

That should make a Diplomatic Victory much more dangerous.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

no - Qin was just a monster. I'm not sure I would have launched before him, in any case. I played with a lot of land. I was making something like 1050 beakers, but Qin was wiping me off the floor.

 

[killercane]

I dont see the use so much in environmentalism super early. Those tiles are specialists anyways. I just take physics with lib and trade for medicine later.

Coastal starts seem to be about the strongest in terms of getting 3 sea resources and at least 1 terrestrial food. Not to mention the Great Lighthouse/harbor/custom house trade routes. I think someone can do sub 1860 pretty easily.

Edit: How silly I just realized I got 1874 with Fred not Bismarck. Too long away from civ!

 

[killercane]

1868 with Bismarck. Had to do a turn of research since I was off on when to build the last engine before Ecology.

Does anyone build the espionage buildings to better watch Mansa's modern research and dovetail with him? Does that work?

 

[MyOtherName]

In one of my failed attempts, I think got a 1090 AD liberalism->biology slingshot. I need to figure out how to do that again!


Anyways, after a series of unfortunate events, I finally got a victory in 1907 AD, which happens to be my fastest OCC space race yet!


I decided I wanted to try some high-food starts -- I rolled up one that had a corn and pigs and was content to play with it. After settling, I realized I had three corn, pigs, and 3 flood plains.

On top of that, I eventually wound up with iron, copper, and aluminum in my borders. Yay!

First, I'll overview the plan. Then I'll describe the fun part -- the diplomacy.
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I went mostly with my standard OCC plan, except that I skipped Hanging Gardens and Great Library -- I simply didn't have enough hammers to bother. I had a size 18 city pre-Globe and pre-Park! I still had to go for Drama before Education so that I could crank up the culture slider up to 80% and switch to Representation -- I think that was a better play in this case than beelining Oxford first.

I tried to do my usual Liberalism->Biology slingshot, but one of the AI's got too close so I didn't feel like gambling. Worse, I was already half-way through Scientific Method, so I wound up settling on Liberalism->Economics for the free great merchant.

Anyways, continued my beeline to Superconductors (research labs & thrusters) while trading my way near rocketry/industrialism. I wound up getting industrialism first this time, and it worked out well.

After rocketry, my usual trip through the modern era is:

• Beeline satellites, so I have something to build if I run out of thrusters
• Beeline composites, because building casings can take a while
• Computers / Fiber Obtics / Fusion, hoping to trade for Fission
• Finally Genetics then Ecology

I couldn't decide between focusing on or focusing on , and juggled back and forth a few times. Eventually, I decided to go with and churn out the internet to nab Fission. (It got Ecology too) I wound up researching Genetics before Fusion while I was waiting for the internet to complete.
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I added Hatsheput, Isabella, Mansa Musa, and Pacal to the map. I'm comfortable with the first two, and I decided to experiment with adding techers to the map, thus the other two. (I tried other combos, and also just the standard 6 a few times before this)

It turns out I drew Hatsheput and Isabella as neighbors -- I tend to play well with the gals, and they started off as #1 and #2 on the scoreboard, so I thought I was finally going to have an easy time of the diplo. Well... both of them missed Buddhism and Hinduism. And Judaism. And Confucianism.

After some irritating flux in the religion situation, Issie settles on adopting Confucianism, and Hatsheput winds up founding Christianity at an annoying time. Mansa was the founder of Confucianism, and Issie's neighbor.

After spending a few hammers trying to get Issie to convert to Christianity, I wind up hitting enter to end the turn just as the "Confucianism has spread, do you want to adopt?" popup appeared, so I guess pick the other side. But Hattie is a sweetie -- I was nervous a lot, but figured things would work out, despite her being cautious for most of the game.

Eventually, Hattie voluntary vassals to Mansa Musa, and MM's block go to war -- I get mutual military struggle and can finally bribe Hattie to switch to Confucianism and all is well in the world! Yay!

Until a while later, Hattie breaks free, switches back to Christianity (and down to cautious) and suddenly has WHEOORHN. This happened a few times, but fortunately she never attacked me.

Then Issie attacks Hattie! But by some miracle the diplomatic situation near me settles down.

Mansa Musa wound up becoming a monster. Issie, Hattie, and Ghandi were all terribly annoying as they would frequently voluntary vassal to him, and break out later. I had to bite my nails when the UN completed -- if they all decided to voluntary vassal, MM would have easily won.

Finally, at the very end after my spaceship is launched and I have 7 turns to go... I had left myself in a perpetual war with Sully who tried to attack me earlier (of course, he can't get through Hattie, and I sicc'd Issie on him too. Good girls!). He randomly capitulates to Mansa Musa! Now I have MM and his block -- which includes Issie at this time -- declaring war on me and Hatsheput. Fortunately, I don't see any action, so I don't have to find out if the stack of 13 Modern Infantry and 1 ICBM I had built since launching could keep me alive.
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One weird note -- there was a barbarian axeman who just lingered in the corner of the map all game, and never bothered to wander into my cultural borders. Anyone have any idea why?