Challenge-II-05

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Good analysis. Try playing your Deity setup on Settler. It might be interesting to see how they compare.

In other words, you would like me to play an optimal Settler Difficulty RL DV Game on any Large Map, Normal Speed, with all other settings chosen to be optimal for an early Win, including Player Leader and AI Leader Opponents. (It may not make sense to use "exactly the same settings", because optimal settings for Settler Difficulty will probably be different from optimal settings for Deity Difficulty.) Such a game would of course not meet the requirement for Challenge Series II Game #5.

I would rather play the best Settler Game I'm able to that meets the requirements of Challenge Series II Game #5. Afterwards, I'll go back to a Deity Difficulty level that meets the requirements of Challenge Series II Game #5.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[HolyHandGrenade]

Very good Turn 101 (BC 350) Settler Win!



Thanks for sharing this strategy.

I agree that starting in the middle of the Map will be very helpful, especially at the lower Difficulty levels.

I will share my strategy once I get a very early Win accepted to validate it. It would be foolish for me to provide any strategy tips for the lower Difficulty levels, given my extreme lack of experience at them. For example, I thought Raging Barbarians would cause trouble for the AIs and even me at Settler level, but at -40% Strength, the Barbarians are a threat only to undefended non-Military units.

Sun Tzu Wu

It could have been faster . In my 1st try (after not playing Civ for several months) I had an incredible start (2 cows, 2 corns in the center of the map) but missed the 1st vote because I forgot to grant Technologies to the opponents, so I had 3 abstains. I used the 2 scouts to lead the missionaries towards the targets to avoid barb attacks. With 2 corn+2 cows it was possible to whip the missionaries as needed. The 2nd mistake in this game was to not send the missionaires to the most distant civs 1st. Because the AP must be build anyway its always best to send them far away first. Building Stonehenge on Settler is a waste too. The Priest used for Church of N. (gold) is useless. With only one city and not much units you always run at 100% science.

On higher level this strategy never works. You have to defend the city earlier which delays important builds and its harder to get the other civs voting for you (on Prince or Monarch the only tech you can grant at this time is Theology, all others won't do much)

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

It could have been faster . In my 1st try (after not playing Civ for several months) I had an incredible start (2 cows, 2 corns in the center of the map) but missed the 1st vote because I forgot to grant Technologies to the opponents, so I had 3 abstains. I used the 2 scouts to lead the missionaries towards the targets to avoid barb attacks. With 2 corn+2 cows it was possible to whip the missionaries as needed. The 2nd mistake in this game was to not send the missionaires to the most distant civs 1st. Because the AP must be build anyway its always best to send them far away first. Building Stonehenge on Settler is a waste too. The Priest used for Church of N. (gold) is useless. With only one city and not much units you always run at 100% science.

On higher level this strategy never works. You have to defend the city earlier which delays important builds and its harder to get the other civs voting for you (on Prince or Monarch the only tech you can grant at this time is Theology, all others won't do much)

Thank you very much, HolyHandGrenade, for your Very Insightful Comments!

I agree that a lower level Win (Settler to Noble) can done much earlier than turn 100. If you considered trying it again, I would not be surprised if you achieved a turn 80 Win or even much better.

I never considered using a Scout to defend Missionaries from Barbarians on lower Difficulty levels, because Scouts are almost always killed by Barbarian Animals/Military Units on Deity level.

Settler level suggestions:

Growth: Grow fast to increase Hammer rate as quickly as possible (requires start with several Hills, possibly including one with Gems/Gold); there are many things that need to be build as quickly as possible; A high Population will also help one Win TAP Votes.

Research path: Meditation (Monastery), beeline Writing (OB), beeline Monotheism (The Oracle), beeline Alphabet (give Technologies).

Builds: Worker, Monastery, Spam Buddhist Missionaries to All Civs, The Oracle, The Apostolic Palace.

Start with a Worker, Meditation, found Buddhism, build Buddhist Monastery, Spam Buddhist Missionaries to all AI Civs, beeline Writing, Open Borders with All Civs, beeline Monotheism, complete The Oracle, complete The Apostolic Palace with Buddhism as the State Religion. You will lost the Vote of the AI Civ with highest Buddhist Population, but you should be able to get a 3/4 majority, especially when your own Population will be providing the largest share by far (maybe Population 10?).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[HolyHandGrenade]

Thank you very much, HolyHandGrenade, for your Very Insightful Comments!

I agree that a lower level Win (Settler to Noble) can done much earlier than turn 100. If you considered trying it again, I would not be surprised if you achieved a turn 80 Win or even much better.

I never considered using a Scout to defend Missionaries from Barbarians on lower Difficulty levels, because Scouts are almost always killed by Barbarian Animals/Military Units on Deity level.

Settler level suggestions:

Growth: Grow fast to increase Hammer rate as quickly as possible (requires start with several Hills, possibly including one with Gems/Gold); there are many things that need to be build as quickly as possible; A high Population will also help one Win TAP Votes.

Research path: Meditation (Monastery), beeline Writing (OB), beeline Monotheism (The Oracle), beeline Alphabet (give Technologies).

Builds: Worker, Monastery, Spam Buddhist Missionaries to All Civs, The Oracle, The Apostolic Palace.

Start with a Worker, Meditation, found Buddhism, build Buddhist Monastery, Spam Buddhist Missionaries to all AI Civs, beeline Writing, Open Borders with All Civs, beeline Monotheism, complete The Oracle, complete The Apostolic Palace with Buddhism as the State Religion. You will lost the Vote of the AI Civ with highest Buddhist Population, but you should be able to get a 3/4 majority, especially when your own Population will be providing the largest share by far (maybe Population 10?).

Sun Tzu Wu

Just one comment: You must be careful that your population (especially on lower levels) is not too big. Self voting is not possible (and I currently don't know if it's still possible to finish HG in between the vote and the announcement)

Ok - 2nd comment: I haven't used the scouts to fight the barbs, just to avoid them

 

[kcd_swede]

As far as the Challenge scoring system is looking, this will likely be one of my better games. But of the 5 Challenge games I've submitted so far, this is one I'm more embarasssed by than anything else. I had to settle for settler level.

I really wanted to do this one at Immortal. When I had 3 decent tries crash in the late game, I decided to start lowering the level. I still had lots of trouble getting any religious win at all, because I would invariably have to spread the AP religion to civ(s) that didn't have it, and they'd adopt it, spread it quickly, and my opponent would be big enough to block any AP victory.

Finally I said wtf... and played my first Settler level game in a very long time. Planned to use Hindu as the AP religion and just out-rex everyone, allowing me to spread it from the get-go. But since I was building Oracle for Theo (did I mention I had gems and floodplains start), I did not have time to build missionaries before I have founded Judaism, and Confu. Then Theo gives me Christianity. My free missionaries went out and about, trying to get to the most distant one first. The Confu missionary got eaten, the Christian one did not, so Christian will be the AP religion.

Mansa spreads like crazy, but by the time the vote comes around, EVERY civ is in state religion Christianity, and I get EVERY civ friendly. I win the vote by just a small margin, but that's enough. No matter how fast it seems, its still only settler level... nothing for me to get excited about.

Large is the setting that made this most of a challenge for me; computer crash nervousness aside, its really tedious having to move missionaries 20 turns before they get to the destinations. Anyhow... as far as I can manage, I'd say settler level is easier than Immortal (and probably easier than deity). Did we really need a Challenge to demonstrate that?

...and after this Large headache, I now have only a Huge headache left (game 4).

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

As far as the Challenge scoring system is looking, this will likely be one of my better games. But of the 5 Challenge games I've submitted so far, this is one I'm more embarasssed by than anything else. I had to settle for settler level.

Given the currently non-existent (To Be Determined) turn discount/bonus for this Game, Settler level is the best option in my opinion. Playing Settler level is nothing to be embarrassed about. Thanks for your brief story about it. Congratulations on your #3 position in the rankings.

I currently, still learning how to Win Settler games as early as possible. The challenges are very different at Settler level versus Deity level, but beyond that the settings of this Game are challenging at any Difficulty level, at least assuming the goal is position 1 in the rankings.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Well, I set out to prove that Settler level is easier than Deity in Game #5. I think that my recent turn 82, BC 825 Setter level Win should alone suffice in that. My Large Normal RL DV, turn 85, BC 750 HOF Deity Win used optimal settings (including NO Barbarians), and maybe some luck. I'm not sure I could achieve a Game #5 Deity level Win in less than 100 turns.

A while back I wrote:

I would rather play the best Settler Game I'm able to that meets the requirements of Challenge Series II Game #5. Afterwards, I'll go back to a Deity Difficulty level that meets the requirements of Challenge Series II Game #5.

At this point of the Challenge Series II (with 83 days to complete the remaining 5 Games), I don't think I'll have time to play a Deity level Game #5. I'd really rather complete at least some of the remaining 5 Games, if not all them. If I do complete the other 5 Games to a placing I'm happy with, I may complete a Deity level Game #5.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

At Settler level, it was my experience that a Scout is more than adequate defense for Missionaries against Barbarian Lions. Defense against more lethal Barbarians was not needed in my Game. For example, Barbarian Warriors did not appear until around turn 80, when the Game was almost over.

At Deity level, a Scout for defense would be foolish, since a Barbarian attacker would be a Warrior, Archer, Spearman, or Axeman, any of which can kill a Scout on any terrain. For Deity level, a Chariot (requires Animal Husbandry and Horse) would be ideal except versus a Spearman, but two Chariots would suffice against a Spearman where one Chariot is sacrificed to defend the Missionary. Two Chariots would be excessive defense versus the risk of landing next to a Barbarian Spearman. Unless one hopes to have Horse in the Capital's BFC, one must find Horse, build a Settler, either settle on the Horse or adjacent to it and build a Road (requires The Wheel) between the Capital and the Horse City.

For Deity level, Missionary defense requires Animal Husbandry and Horse and possibly also a Settler and The Wheel. For Settler level, Missionary defense requires a Scout which can be built via free (Settler level) Hunting.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Dynamic]

Well, I set out to prove that Settler level is easier than Deity in Game #5. I think that my recent turn 82, BC 825 Setter level Win should alone suffice in that. My Large Normal RL DV, turn 85, BC 750 HOF Deity Win used optimal settings (including NO Barbarians), and maybe some luck. I'm not sure I could achieve a Game #5 Deity level Win in less than 100 turns.

Congrats Sun Tzu Wu!
Now we have a right date for comparing.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Congrats Sun Tzu Wu!

Thanks, Dynamic.

Now we have a right date for comparing.

At least the best Settler Game is closer to optimal for Game #5 settings.

I know my submitted Settler Game could be improved under Game #5 settings, but I'm not sure how much better. My initial Scout was slow to find the AI Civs; I built 4 more Scouts after a Worker to improve speed of contact. One or two more Scouts should have been sufficient. Otherwise, my Game play was reasonably optimal.

I had a Slave revolt in my Settler Game which probably cost me 1 turn. I really should turn off Events. For several months, Events seem to be more negative than positive. Even when I don't adopt Slavery which is the usual case. (If you plan to use Slavery, you should definitely turn off Events.) Prior to this Events seemed to be consistently more positive than negative.

I suspect that a Turn 75 (BC 1000) Settler Game may be possible with an especially good Starting position.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Dynamic]

I had a Slave revolt in my Settler Game which probably cost me 1 turn. I really should turn off Events. For several months, Events seem to be more negative than positive. Even when I don't adopt Slavery which is the usual case. (If you plan to use Slavery, you should definitely turn off Events.) Prior to this Events seemed to be consistently more positive than negative.
Sun Tzu Wu

Yes, I always disable Events. It's like Lock Modified Assets option for me.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Congratulations azylic!

I hope the tips in this thread were useful in your Game.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[shulec]

I have submitted both levels for this game.

The settler cheese was fun. My observations:
1. Commerce tiles in bfc are unnecessary if you have riverside tiles.
2. You can be very risky with missionaries. That wooden cross scares the bejesus out of those wild animals.
3. True diplomacy can be seriously fumbled with little consequence (until I missed an 875 BC vote)
4. If you found Judaism, don't be a moron and forget to convert to OR for 2-4 fewer turns producing the Oracle. (900 BC could have been done 2-3 turns better without this gaffe).

My settler game used a hills marble start and one deer. The rest were hills, forests, and riverside tiles. I think I built three add'l scouts and three workers.

As expected, deity was a completely different creature. I have gotten close to Oracling theology, but haven't had a good enough start position for it. In the game I submitted, I said "What the hell, why not!" and kept going when someone else got the oracle. I had been spread Judaism early so I built a temple and ran a priest specialist and focused on building the Temple of Artemis. This allowed me to pop a great priest=>Theology. There was a large Judaism block, so I built the AP in Christianity, then went back to Judaism. Mansa Musa was my workhorse. He contributed a butt-load of votes (probably 60%.) I went with Theocracy since Izzy was Jewish, and I was doing OK with Saladin. Everyone hated Hatty and Sury, so OR would get me nowhere with them.

The most limiting factor was the nasty barbs. I put a lot of hammers into early warriors for spawn busting. Thankfully, the deity AI's viral replication quickly covered the map.

Teching on deity is rough. The ideal start has corn and deer as your food resources, not pigs (too many beakers spent on AH.) Riverside fur will show up in close to proximity to marble. You may get one gem in the vicinity too.

My possible ideal start (>seven days of mapfinder.):
1. Boxed in a corner.
2. One gem (two is unlikely for an awesome balanced start)
3. Hills marble to settle on.
4. Two food resources (Two corn, two deer, or one of each)
5. Riverside hills for +1 commerce, and riverside grasslands for +1 commerce on farms.
6. Luscious forests in the BFC and surrounding.
7. One to two riverside fur. (+5 commerce)

My start had two corn, one irrigated, two fur, neither on riverside, two marble on non-riverside plains. I settled on non-riverside grassland.

If anyone tries on deity, it can compete with the top spots (after the weighted benefit) if theology can be Oracled.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I have submitted both levels for this game.

Congratulations on both Games, shulec! Nice write up fro both Games!

I am puzzled by why your Deity Game doesn't show up in the Rankings.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[shulec]

I am puzzled by why your Deity Game doesn't show up in the Rankings.

The Deity game is still waiting for approval.