Changes to Existing Civ's?

[dashwinner]

#7 Aztec... Getting a special warrior unit is about as exciting as getting the Atlatlist with Pacal, Yawn...gotta do yet another early power grab.
#8 Russia...The cossak just doesn't do it for me, a shamefully conceived near worthless concept of resources (best for USA), Ever hear of a T-34 tank!?

Except, like Polynesia, the jaguar keeps his specs the whole game, meaning if you take care of them, you can end up with some EXTREMELY powerful melee units

Not really sure what you are saying about Russia

 

[Calouste]

Except, like Polynesia, the jaguar keeps his specs the whole game, meaning if you take care of them, you can end up with some EXTREMELY powerful melee units

Not really sure what you are saying about Russia

The Jaguar is pretty sweet if you can keep them around, and if you have iron to get them through the Swordsman and Longswordsman. But the best benefit of the Aztecs IMO are the Floating Gardens. + 15% food (base food, not growth) gets you some massive cities.

 

[Fummy]

If it hasn't been mentioned already, I think the Netherlands.

When I heard about the new trading system I immediately thought of the dutch, who are supposed to be famous for their overseas trading. They're current UA is so underpowered and barely helps trading, and I feel that they could take advantage of the new system much better.

For example, they could get a certain amount more (or double) trading units. Maybe a free one every age or something. That way they could connect themselves to many other civs and city states.

 

[ferretbacon]

If it hasn't been mentioned already, I think the Netherlands.

When I heard about the new trading system I immediately thought of the dutch, who are supposed to be famous for their overseas trading. They're current UA is so underpowered and barely helps trading, and I feel that they could take advantage of the new system much better.

For example, they could get a certain amount more (or double) trading units. Maybe a free one every age or something. That way they could connect themselves to many other civs and city states.

I'm expecting to see a small addendum to their current UA, similar to how England got an extra spy tacked on when G&K was released.

Something like:

East India Company: Retain 50% of the Happiness from a Luxury resource even if the last copy is traded. +1 movement to cargo ships.

or

East India Company: Retain 50% of the Happiness from a Luxury resource even if the last copy is traded. Cargo ships can defend themselves.

or

East India Company: Retain 50% of the Happiness from a Luxury resource even if the last copy is traded. International trade routes may be established at twice the distance.

or even

East India Company: Retain 50% of the Happiness from a Luxury resource even if the last copy is traded. Receive an extra oceanic trade route.

 

[codepoet]

If it hasn't been mentioned already, I think the Netherlands.

When I heard about the new trading system I immediately thought of the dutch, who are supposed to be famous for their overseas trading. They're current UA is so underpowered and barely helps trading, and I feel that they could take advantage of the new system much better.

For example, they could get a certain amount more (or double) trading units. Maybe a free one every age or something. That way they could connect themselves to many other civs and city states.

Dutch were added in G&K :]
Misread.
Eh - I would not be surprised if they're modified, but I also think their UA as is, is situationally quite good.

 

[Matthew.]

That is the problem though is the Civ is more situational than even Spain. No bias towards marsh or coast, so you can end up in a game with little to no access to polders, beggars, and a UA that is hit or miss depending on what luxuries everyone has.

At least with Spain you are guaranteed to get the 100 gold and happiness eventually.

 

[Calouste]

It looks like there is going to be less cash in the early game, so it might be harder for the Dutch (and everyone else of course) to sell their luxuries for cash, and there are usually not that many spare luxuries around in the early game that you can trade for them.

@ferretbacon:
I don't think that trade routes exist as land or oceanic. It just depends on whether you build caravans or cargo ships to use the trade routes you have.

An extra trade route would be nice though. You could have international trade and still be able to ship food or hammers from your capital to your newly founded cities.

 

[Xger]

It looks like there is going to be less cash in the early game, so it might be harder for the Dutch (and everyone else of course) to sell their luxuries for cash, and there are usually not that many spare luxuries around in the early game that you can trade for them.

@ferretbacon:
I don't think that trade routes exist as land or oceanic. It just depends on whether you build caravans or cargo ships to use the trade routes you have.

An extra trade route would be nice though. You could have international trade and still be able to ship food or hammers from your capital to your newly founded cities.

The distinction between land and sea has been mentioned several times, and we know sea routes are worth twice that of land.

 

[Calouste]

The distinction between land and sea has been mentioned several times, and we know sea routes are worth twice that of land.

Yes, but when you get a trade route, it isn't a land route or a sea route. It becomes a land route when you assign a Caravan to it, and a sea route when you assign a Cargo Ship to it. Having land/sea status assigned to a trade route before hand would be a pretty bad design decision, because you can't use a sea route if you're landlocked, either of them could be useless on certain map types, etc.

 

[Heinage]

If it hasn't been mentioned already, I think the Netherlands.

When I heard about the new trading system I immediately thought of the dutch, who are supposed to be famous for their overseas trading. They're current UA is so underpowered and barely helps trading, and I feel that they could take advantage of the new system much better...

Check out the thread I created a couple of weeks ago
Link is in my signature.

 

[ferretbacon]

Yes, but when you get a trade route, it isn't a land route or a sea route. It becomes a land route when you assign a Caravan to it, and a sea route when you assign a Cargo Ship to it. Having land/sea status assigned to a trade route before hand would be a pretty bad design decision, because you can't use a sea route if you're landlocked, either of them could be useless on certain map types, etc.

Kind of a moot point... for the purposes of the UA, if you have a trade route on the water using a cargo ship, it's an oceanic trade route. Doesn't really matter how the mechanics are working behind the scene, the wording is independent of that and I'm sure it's simple to draw a distinction.

 

[BSPollux]

Dont forget how small things can change the game and therefor change the way the diffrent abilitys work out. So that, without a change in the ability itself, we might see a change in its usefullness, an indirect buff.

For instance, theres that screenshot that shows a barbarian axemen. Depending on the strenght of axemen, theire costs and, most important, the time the barbarians get them, they might change some civs quite a lot.

Think about Germanys UA. Its basicaly worthless because, for a long time, you can only get realy bad units from the barbcamps. Now imagine the axemen barbs showing up early and having an attack bonus. Farming those could realy be worth the effort now.

What if these axemen are relatively strong and have a bonus against a specific type of unit, say spearmen? Any civ with an early unique unit would be strenghtened indirectly.

And then theres the Metagame: The new civs, how will they shift the balance? If we see six new civs that can expand like mad and be successfull with that, the turtles will come under heavy pressure. Or will the economy changes (no river cash bonus) make early expansion way harder? We just dont know yet. And so we dont know if the old civs have to be changed.

 

[Jabberwockxeno]

If the kongo aren't in, I'm betting the songhai UA will change. Something with trade routes and rivers.

The aztecs may be changed as well. Personally, I wouldn't mind them getting faith per kill instead of culture, as it makes more sense.

 

[Louis XXIV]

If they get faith per kill, it screws over the Celts. That would mean the Pictish Warrior has to change. And then where are we left?

 

[Tyrvos]

I'm expecting to see a small addendum to their current UA, similar to how England got an extra spy tacked on when G&K was released.

Something like:

East India Company: Retain 50% of the Happiness from a Luxury resource even if the last copy is traded. +1 movement to cargo ships.

or

East India Company: Retain 50% of the Happiness from a Luxury resource even if the last copy is traded. Cargo ships can defend themselves.

or

East India Company: Retain 50% of the Happiness from a Luxury resource even if the last copy is traded. International trade routes may be established at twice the distance.

or even

East India Company: Retain 50% of the Happiness from a Luxury resource even if the last copy is traded. Receive an extra oceanic trade route.

I think defending themselves would make the most sense. Just make their cargo ship the Fluyt, which could also justify a "cargo space" improvement. I was thinking Carthage may get a change, but the free harbor will still help sea trade a ton for they probably won't.

 

[Tyrvos]

If they get faith per kill, it screws over the Celts. That would mean the Pictish Warrior has to change. And then where are we left?

I'd say it'd be the same as how the free amphib of songhai hurts the danish berserker, in my opinion anyways. The pictish would still have that 20% foreign bonus and pillaging and the faith coming in from the Celts UA. But ya I agree with you, I wouldn't see that aztec change happening, doesn't really seem necessary.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I don't see the Aztecs getting a change. They generate culture via killing. That still makes sense with the new function of culture as a resistance to Tourism. Guys who rip out still-beating human hearts on behalf of their gods aren't going to be interested in seeing your fancy museum of art or a hit musical in your theater district.

 

[ferretbacon]

I don't see the Aztecs getting a change. They generate culture via killing. That still makes sense with the new function of culture as a resistance to Tourism. Guys who rip out still-beating human hearts on behalf of their gods aren't going to be interested in seeing your fancy museum of art or a hit musical in your theater district.

Anyway...

The Celts are one of the G&K civs that I think could benefit from a little UA refinement. Honestly, it wouldn't hurt for the Aztecs and the Celts to switch. The Aztecs practiced warfare for their religious beliefs and when I think of Celts, I generally think of Celtic culture, as their UB reflects.

Overall, I don't think the Celts would have had so much faith generation if they weren't a part of G&Ks. As it was, they were the likeliest candidate to implement a faith for kills system.

 

[ehecatzin]

I don't see the Aztecs getting a change. They generate culture via killing. That still makes sense with the new function of culture as a resistance to Tourism. Guys who rip out still-beating human hearts on behalf of their gods aren't going to be interested in seeing your fancy museum of art or a hit musical in your theater district.

That was the cool thing about them, the same guys who ripped hearts out,were obssesive about gardening and poetry about flowers and birds.

Gotta love them.

Anyhow, switching Celt and Aztec UA would make sense flavour wise, but I dont see them doing that. Still all cultural civs will have to get some sort of adjustment to the new system.

But you are right, maybe that extra cultura will make spreading ideologies to the Aztecs a real headache.

 

[bcaiko]

No bias towards marsh or coast, so you can end up in a game with little to no access to polders, beggars, and a UA that is hit or miss depending on what luxuries everyone has.

Don't the Dutch have a Grassland bias? That's more than likely to put them near marshes, if not directly on top of them.

For instance, theres that screenshot that shows a barbarian axemen. Depending on the strenght of axemen, theire costs and, most important, the time the barbarians get them, they might change some civs quite a lot.

I haven't seen the screenshot of the axemen, but - if true - there's a real posibility that these are barbarian Swordsmen. A la brutes to warriors.

Still all cultural civs will have to get some sort of adjustment to the new system.

...why? Culture is still very valuable and necessary (so far as we know) toward a cultural victory. Social policies are very helpful, and culture will help ward off other ideologies while you press forward with your own. Further, we don't know how the new Great Artists, ect., are created (since you seem to need quite a few of them)...Culture may very well have something to do with that.

I will call it again. We will see very few, if any, changes to existing Civs.