City Name Maps

[Voyelles]

Here is the latest French map, should be all sorted and ready to be used as the Burgundian map.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I'm in the process of updating the first posts
The recent changes (with the last one who edited):

French/Burgundy - Voyelles
Genoan - Morholt
Venezian - Michael Vick
German - Michael Vick
Poland - Morholt
Sweden - Morholt
Norse - Morholt
Lithuanian - Morholt

 

[AbsintheRed]

Alright, the second post is updated with the maps above.
I also changed a few very small things on most maps (ie: renamed the Sicilian Ragusa to Syracuse, as we don't want to have 2 Ragusas in the game, etc.)
So please base your further changes on those maps

After a quick check in all the maps, I have to say, that these are coming along pretty nicely
Good job on them, everyone!
We may expand the polish map inside Germany (as it was that way in the previous version), expand Poland and Lithuania to reach the Black sea coast, and add a few more german names in eastern Hungary and in the northern Balkans (I may do this, as I plan to update the austrian map when I finish my changes on the hungarian city names), but otherwise I really like how the maps are developing with each update

 

[Michael Vick]

Alright, the second post is updated with the maps above.
I also changed a few very small things on most maps (ie: renamed the Sicilian Ragusa to Syracuse, as we don't want to have 2 Ragusas in the game, etc.)
So please base your further changes on those maps

After a quick check in all the maps, I have to say, that these are coming along pretty nicely
Good job on them, everyone!
We may expand the polish map inside Germany (as it was that way in the previous version), expand Poland and Lithuania to reach the Black sea coast, and add a few more german names in eastern Hungary and in the northern Balkans (I may do this, as I plan to update the austrian map when I finish my changes on the hungarian city names), but otherwise I really like how the maps are developing with each update

Great! I'd like to do the Spanish map in Italy and the French/German areas next, so I'm waiting for that upload.

 

[Kartoffelvampir]

I synchronized the Byzantium and Ottoman map in Anatolia and Greece (that is, everything south of the serbia and bulgaria provinces), and updated them so that most Cities only cover 2x2 spot (didn't worked everywhere, unfortunanly). Also, Byzantium is greek now.
The maps are not done yet, the middle east and north africa still need work.

Btw, were the names of Turkish Cities different during the Ottoman Empire? Because i couldn't find some of the names that apperead in the former Version in Wikipedia, which kind worries me...

Attention anyone who is updating North Africa name maps:

I just remembered that I made this updated Arab/Cordoban name map at the same time as the new Maghreb. Might be useful as reference, and so that all maps are synchronized with each other.

How far does your Maghreb goes eastward? Does it include Egypt?

Also, is there any recent map for the area from Syria to Egypt? That area looked like it needs some work, but since it is needed for a lot civs, i don't want to do things on my one here.

 

[Kartoffelvampir]

My apologies, it was a compromise since the French map was radically different. The German map is a bit controversial, especially that Hamburg-Bremen area down to Braunschweig, Paderborn, etc. The other changes I made were more agreeable, I think, removing cities such as Soest? Havelburg? The Strasbourg to Freiburg area was also a mess, but I think I reached a conclusion that makes the most sense. The map took forever, I don't want to go back to the original German map that was pretty unorganized in the Western edges. I changed nothing East of Schwerin. It probably should be discussed further before the Dutch and Spanish maps are made for the area, I'll hear the arguments. Hamburg on the coast? I don't know about that one, I think that AbsintheRed should hear more opinions on that than our own. Tell me in detail everything else you thing is wrong about the map.

Well, some Issues:

Spoiler :

You probably used recent German maps, which maybe isn't the best way to start this map, since every second City in Germany was bourned in the 30-Years-war, and so Cities important today were small towns in the middle ages and vice-versa.
Essen, for example didn't grow to be a city till the 19th century (population in 1800: 3000; population 1900: half a million), and is thus outside our timeframe, it shouldn't appear in our map at all.
Soest, on the other hand, was a pretty big City in the middle ages, while it isn't really of note today.
Check out the top of this page:http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_gr%C3%B6%C3%9Ften_deutschen_St%C3%A4dte.
For Hamburg: it maybe isn't on the coast in real life, but neither is Rome, London, Bordeaux, Sevilla, etc. - you get the picture. But it has a seaport, and is one of the biggest ports in Germany (or Europe), so it should be on the coast in the Game.

I will look further into it when i'm done with Byzantine and the Ottomans, just that for now.

 

[AbsintheRed]

You probably used recent German maps, which maybe isn't the best way to start this map, since every second City in Germany was bourned in the 30-Years-war, and so Cities important today were small towns in the middle ages and vice-versa.
Essen, for example didn't grow to be a city till the 19th century (population in 1800: 3000; population 1900: half a million), and is thus outside our timeframe, it shouldn't appear in our map at all.
Soest, on the other hand, was a pretty big City in the middle ages, while it isn't really of note today.
Check out the top of this page:http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_gr%C3%B6%C3%9Ften_deutschen_St%C3%A4dte.
For Hamburg: it maybe isn't on the coast in real life, but neither is Rome, London, Bordeaux, Sevilla, etc. - you get the picture. But it has a seaport, and is one of the biggest ports in Germany (or Europe), so it should be on the coast in the Game.

I agree with Kartoffelvamipr on these things.
Historically important cities should always have prioirity
Hamburg was a very important port (and Hansa city), and unfortunately we cannot model sailing in the rivers in Civ IV
So this leaves us with adding Hamburg as a coastal city, or not adding it at all

 

[AbsintheRed]

Great! I'd like to do the Spanish map in Italy and the French/German areas next, so I'm waiting for that upload.

Yeah I know. Sry :/
But I still don't know what to do with the Iberian peninsula and North Africa.
The whole NW part of Africa should be moved 2-3 tiles south, and the Iberian peninsula reshaped
And the bigger work would be after that, with moving all the indy/barb cities, civ starting points, and modifying every hardcoded thing which is connected to that area

 

[Michael Vick]

Well, some Issues:

Spoiler :

You probably used recent German maps, which maybe isn't the best way to start this map, since every second City in Germany was bourned in the 30-Years-war, and so Cities important today were small towns in the middle ages and vice-versa.
Essen, for example didn't grow to be a city till the 19th century (population in 1800: 3000; population 1900: half a million), and is thus outside our timeframe, it shouldn't appear in our map at all.
Soest, on the other hand, was a pretty big City in the middle ages, while it isn't really of note today.
Check out the top of this page:http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_gr%C3%B6%C3%9Ften_deutschen_St%C3%A4dte.
For Hamburg: it maybe isn't on the coast in real life, but neither is Rome, London, Bordeaux, Sevilla, etc. - you get the picture. But it has a seaport, and is one of the biggest ports in Germany (or Europe), so it should be on the coast in the Game.

I will look further into it when i'm done with Byzantine and the Ottomans, just that for now.

Good points. I'll change the one Essen tile to Dusseldorf, the capital of Herzogtum Berg? It's not as major as Koln but I don't think Koln should be founded so far North.

I read what I could on Soest but I think Paderborn is the better city because it was the location of a few diets and historical events relating to Charlemagne. Paderborn was always a city of modest but moderate size and importance while Soest became a large city in the 11th century but suffered so greatly in the Thirty Years War that it practically ceased to hold importance for the last 200 years of this mod.

Rome and Bordeaux are not coastal cities but they are so close to the coast that in this game it would be ridiculous to have them as landlocked cities for the purposes of this mod. In RFC Europe we've made the mouths of the Thames and Guadalquivir coastal tiles. If that coastal tile that you want to border Hamburg is the opening of the Elbe and not the Weser as I seem to have mistaken it for, then I agree with you and Hamburg will have one tile on the coast to the SE of the opening so that Hamburg will have a 2x2 square of tiles. Another Schleswig tile will replace Cuxhaven, Cuxhaven will be moved across the river to replace Aurich. Are we in agreement?

Yeah I know. Sry :/
But I still don't know what to do with the Iberian peninsula and North Africa.
The whole NW part of Africa should be moved 2-3 tiles south, and the Iberian peninsula reshaped
And the bigger work would be after that, with moving all the indy/barb cities, civ starting points, and modifying every hardcoded thing which is connected to that area

Yes, the tilt is obvious, sadly. It's been discussed many times, but efforts to redo/fix it have either never started or been abandoned. I want to help you with the reshaping if you do go through with it, logic would indicate that we have a tilt because Africa goes much too far North. Right now, the tile for the city of Tunis is exactly where it needs to be, everything West of that is inaccurate. I propose we redo the African coast, first. Once we have a final, accurate location for Tangier, we define the southern tip of Spain at Gibraltar, make the Northern coast of Spain in a straight line from the San Sebastian tile, and attempt to recreate our current Iberia from there. I'll start by redoing the African coast and uploading it for opinions.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Yes, the tilt is obvious, sadly. It's been discussed many times, but efforts to redo/fix it have either never started or been abandoned. I want to help you with the reshaping if you do go through with it, logic would indicate that we have a tilt because Africa goes much too far North. Right now, the tile for the city of Tunis is exactly where it needs to be, everything West of that is inaccurate.

Agreed, the problems starts west of Tunis

I'll start by redoing the African coast and uploading it for opinions.

Actually this is on my to-do list for months, so I already made a couple first drafts. The last one about a week ago
You can of course upload your version, every ideas are welcome

I'm only hesitating, if these changes worth the amount of work we have to put in it or not...
And if we decide to do it, should we start such bigger changes before the release of Beta 12?

 

[Michael Vick]

Agreed, the problems starts west of Tunis



Actually this is on my to-do list for months, so I already made a couple first drafts. The last one about a week ago
You can of course upload your version, every ideas are welcome
I'm only hesitating, if these changes worth the amount of work we have to put in it or not...
And if we decide to do it, should we start such bigger changes before the release of Beta 12?

Let me see your latest draft then , and it shouldn't be rushed, let's just see how far the map has come on the release date of Beta 12.

 

[Michael Vick]

I'm in the process of updating the first posts
The recent changes (with the last one who edited):

French/Burgundy - Voyelles
Genoan - Morholt
Venezian - Michael Vick
German - Michael Vick
Poland - Morholt
Sweden - Morholt
Norse - Morholt
Lithuanian - Morholt

Did you look at Voyelles' latest map? It's inconsistent with the German map. I thought it was just spelling changes, a lot cities are actually replaced. The place where the French AI founds Reims half the time is now Meaux. Brest only has one tile, in it's exact location, the tile South of it is now Quimper. This makes it inconsistent with the English map as well. The tile that is supposed to be Strasbourg (with the roman village improvement on it) is now Selestat. No doubt these locations are very precise but I'd prefer Reims to Meaux instead of single tiles for every city.

@Voyelles, what were the spelling changes made in the map?

 

[Voyelles]

Did you look at Voyelles' latest map? It's inconsistent with the German map. I thought it was just spelling changes, a lot cities are actually replaced. The place where the French AI founds Reims half the time is now Meaux. Brest only has one tile, in it's exact location, the tile South of it is now Quimper. This makes it inconsistent with the English map as well. The tile that is supposed to be Strasbourg (with the roman village improvement on it) is now Selestat. No doubt these locations are very precise but I'd prefer Reims to Meaux instead of single tiles for every city.

@Voyelles, what were the spelling changes made in the map?

I did a revision of the French map, not just a spellcheck. Let me take you through the main points.

The city of Brest has been restricted to its geographical location as Quimper, Morlaix and Lorient are worthy of inclusion. In particular Quimper is an ancient cathedral city and to this day the main administrative center of the area. No doubt the English map needs merging, but this is the point of this exercise after all (side note, the English map has an awful Wales choice as it lacks Cardiff, but I digress..)

Similarly, Meaux is more than worthy of history for its status as an ancient cathedral city and significance in the French wars of religion, which fall within the remit of this mod. This maintains the balance of historicity and notoriety, especially as the AI does favour the retained Reims tile for the purposes of city placement.

Finally, the Alsace/Lorraine does need finalising, I have made some revisions to take off Schlestadt/Selestat and reinstate the west-of-Rhine Baden-Baden until we find a better way. The area is problematic due to awkward river placement - let's try and find a satisfactory solution, especially viz the Trèves/Trier and Baden-Baden tiles.
As a side note, shouldn't Heidelberg be somewhere on the German map?

Thanks for the comments, this update is looking crunchy!

 

[Michael Vick]

I did a revision of the French map, not just a spellcheck. Let me take you through the main points.

The city of Brest has been restricted to its geographical location as Quimper, Morlaix and Lorient are worthy of inclusion. In particular Quimper is an ancient cathedral city and to this day the main administrative center of the area. No doubt the English map needs merging, but this is the point of this exercise after all (side note, the English map has an awful Wales choice as it lacks Cardiff, but I digress..)

Similarly, Meaux is more than worthy of history for its status as an ancient cathedral city and significance in the French wars of religion, which fall within the remit of this mod. This maintains the balance of historicity and notoriety, especially as the AI does favour the retained Reims tile for the purposes of city placement.

Finally, the Alsace/Lorraine does need finalising, I have made some revisions to take off Schlestadt/Selestat and reinstate the west-of-Rhine Baden-Baden until we find a better way. The area is problematic due to awkward river placement - let's try and find a satisfactory solution, especially viz the Trèves/Trier and Baden-Baden tiles.
As a side note, shouldn't Heidelberg be somewhere on the German map?

Thanks for the comments, this update is looking crunchy!

No doubt, each of these cities are worthy of a Wikipedia article, they all have their own share of history. The question one must ask themselves, is, IF the AI chose to found a city on one of the disputed tiles while you were playing a different civ, would you rather see that civ found Reims or Meaux? Would you rather see Reims or Meaux as you perused your map of the world? Brest or Quimper? Nizza or Ventimiglia? Caen or Bayeux (both very historic!, but honestly, Bayeux would look out of place in the later years of the mod when Caen has more of a raison d'etre throughout the whole mod, don't you think? You left a single tile for Lyon, a tile that (while the most geographically accurate and the one I would use myself) the AI doesn't usually use. I think that just about everybody, including you, would rather see Lyon than Vienne. Yes, it was the capital of ancient Burgundy, it has a Roman temple, a nice castle, but really, Lyon or Vienne? Most people would agree that Saint Denis is a neighborhood of Paris, not its own city worthy of its own tile. You even moved Aix-en-Provence to a less than likely positon just to be able to include Arles which was displaced by Nimes which is a little too far East because of Montpellier! Just think, with this map, if Marseilles was to be razed in the early game, as it does occur about 5% of the time, Marseilles only having one tile means that we might never see Marseilles in the game again but be forced to look at Arles!

We just can't have every single town in the city name map. There are places where I think I your changes should be kept, however. I like Lorient, Alencon, Vendome, Cambrai and Foix where you have inserted them. Also, Saarbrücken will replace Kaiserslautern in any/all of its instances. I agree on Heidelberg, it will replace Mannheim.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Did you look at Voyelles' latest map? It's inconsistent with the German map. I thought it was just spelling changes, a lot cities are actually replaced. The place where the French AI founds Reims half the time is now Meaux. Brest only has one tile, in it's exact location, the tile South of it is now Quimper. This makes it inconsistent with the English map as well. The tile that is supposed to be Strasbourg (with the roman village improvement on it) is now Selestat. No doubt these locations are very precise but I'd prefer Reims to Meaux instead of single tiles for every city.

@Voyelles, what were the spelling changes made in the map?

Yeah, I had a quick look on all of them
But I cannot possibly check if all names are synced on each of the maps

This is up to you guys, everybody should keep the maps he is working on synced: ATM the French map you and Voyelles, the german map you and Kartoffelvampir
Also, I'm sure after a few more updates you will get to the best conclusion and/or compromise on most of the tiles.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Just think, with this map, if Marseilles was to be razed in the early game, as it does occur about 5% of the time, Marseilles only having one tile means that we might never see Marseilles in the game again but be forced to look at Arles!

Actually I don't mind this at all. Marseilles is razed in a few occasions, so we see it's neighbour emerging as a dominant city in the region. Would be kind of cool.
This mod exactly does this: enables alternative history, while keeping everything in some general guidelines

We just can't have every single town in the city name map.

On the other hand, I also agree with this.
The most important cities should have a high chance to appear on the map.
Preplaced cities, and the AIs favourite city founding tiles are already have good chance to be important cities in the mod.
But otherwise it's not bad if we give the historically most important cities as much tiles as possible

 

[AbsintheRed]

Finally, the Alsace/Lorraine does need finalising, I have made some revisions to take off Schlestadt/Selestat and reinstate the west-of-Rhine Baden-Baden until we find a better way. The area is problematic due to awkward river placement - let's try and find a satisfactory solution, especially viz the Trèves/Trier and Baden-Baden tiles.

If the main RFCE Europe map needs some improvements, this is the right time to update it (before the city name maps are finished)
So everyone, feel free to suggest changes if you find a problematic area

 

[Voyelles]

If the main RFCE Europe map needs some improvements, this is the right time to update it (before the city name maps are finished)
So everyone, feel free to suggest changes if you find a problematic area

This one has been mentionned before, but I'll mention it again : the Garonne river is bad, it should at the very minimum extend one tile east then south instead of the current 1S,1E.

@M Vick
I tended to restrict auto-placing cities to one tile, in the case of Lyon I thought I had the right one. Of course we should change the AI favored tile to Lyon.
I reckon Vienne has to be somewhere, as a significant former capital.

Just spotted another mistake, we should put Fréjus instead of my Cannes. Havent the tme to edit it right now, will address this later.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I was away from modding from mid March till the end of May.
Tried to check everything what happened during that time, but I probably missed a few things

Anyway, all the proposed map changes should be addressed now
So, if we are at this, any other river changes needed in the german-french area?

 

[Michael Vick]

I was away from modding from mid March till the end of May.
Tried to check everything what happened during that time, but I probably missed a few things

Anyway, all the proposed map changes should be addressed now
So, if we are at this, any other river changes needed in the german-french area?

Not that I know of.