Civ 4 Tournament Idea

[RRRaskolnikov]

i'd guees Suleiman wins. unless someone gets diplo or something else happens as always.

I guess imperialist AIs will win... unless it's Shaka

 

[shyuhe]

Seeing how well imperialistic AI do makes you wonder whether the trait is really as bad as people say it is

I'm going for the blackhorse pick here and choose WK space followed by Pacal space. I don't think the warmongers will get much traction on this map.

 

[Everyday]

I have A LOT of free time atm and could run, say, game 3 and post it after game 2 has been done, unfortunately i cant pm anybody until i make 3 more posts so does that sound like a good idea? also i would need advice on balancing the starts (add a bit of audience participation)

 

[bestrfcplayer]

This one will seem to be even more intersting than the one before! I see that Monty wins when he reaches the modern era....

 

[Kadazzle]

I have a lot of faith in Pacal to win this one. 2 gold + 'nuff floodplains should pull him ahead.

 

[Zexx]

Some thoughts:
Monty: Solid start with double cows, each are 6 yield tiles (Although brown cows are an odd "food" resource imo.) Some solid land to grow into, a bit of rivers, wines, some gems, I can see him getting really out of hand.
Peter: Same deal, only with a few more mediocre seafood cities thrown in, and some conflict with Pericles. Whoever snags that block site first will have the upper hand there. And sooner or later, Monty is going to declare on Peter. Unless some crazy religion hugging goes on, if Peter doesn't get to that narrow spit of land between him and Pericles, it's him against Monty, and Monty seems to have better land.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

And sooner or later, Monty is going to declare on Peter.

Peace weights = they are pleased on contact. A DoW on Peter can happen but is decidedly less likely than a target on pericles or lincoln.

I forgot Pacal actually has a low peace weight (while not very aggressive, peace weights technically aren't the same thing as aggression). This means that the people who would DoW him are actually churchill/lincoln. With that in mind, I move his chances up a bit.

Religious distribution is a bit of a wild card on this map.

Wang has excellent land and will out-perform his usual suckage, but he won't be liked probably.

 

[DMOC]

Game 1, Round 2 Preview

Welcome to game 2 of the first round! Here we pit 8 new AI's together on a fractal map which ended up looking like a weird pangea map. After several alterations were made behind the scenes, we are now ready to start our predictions.

At first glance, it seems like Lincoln and Pacal II have the best land, since they are smack-dab in the middle of the map with plenty of grasslands nearby. The caveat, though, is that both of those civs are on the opposite ends of the peace-weight spectrum so, while it's unlikely an actual war will erupt, it is likely that they will not trade with each other, thus slowing down both of their development. It will be interesting to see who can land-grab most of the middle. Lincoln, at least, can be assured of a peaceful neighbor behind him, Pericles. Percles, while normaly a strong AI, will find the going tough here with land at a premium and certain civs to the north of him.

Speaking of the north, we have Montezuma and Peter together on a landmass connected to the mainland by just a small isthmus (that was originally a mountain, but was magically altered to hills by a certain mapmaker ). Peaceweights and warmonger respect mean that Montezuma and Peter will be pleased upon contact, so Peter ends up being the lucky one here since, desipte the border tension, Montezuma is likely to head south and give Peter a bye. We'll see if Peter can join Montezuma in a war and grab some land for himself, making him a strong late-game competitor. If Montezuma can found a religion and spread it to Peter, so much the better for him.

On the other side of the map, we have Churchill, Wang Kon, and Suleiman in the middle of the two. There's a lot of nice land up for grabs, but it seems as if Suleiman, with his strong capital and his traits, will grab the majority for himself. Wang Kon might be able to stay competitive with his traits, but he runs the risk of a war with Suleiman. Perhaps if Wang Kon can get a religion (since he seems to like doing so a lot) and share it with Suleiman, he'll remain competitive. Churchill's success in this game will largely depend on where he decides to expand first. If he expands to the south and the southeast first - his chances look good. Combined with his war-like traits, it seems as if Churchill will be resistant to damage from wars.

Overall, it looks like a very interesting map. Suleiman and Peter look to be the main space race competitors, while Pacal II will no doubt try for another one of his culture victories.

I will play the save today!


Base peaceweights:

Churchill: 6
Montezuma: 0 eek
Wang Kon: 8
Lincoln: 9
Suleiman: 4
Peter: 1
Pericles: 6
Pacal II: 2 eek

 

[DMOC]

This one is wildly unpredictable. It depends which AIs get the religion. If monty opts to blow right by peter to attack someone else Peter has a very good chance (he himself will also want to DoW on pericles and lincoln and has the positioning to do that effectively). IMO peter being there and starting with metal hurts monty's chances...peter has a mere 5 less unitprob than the featherhead and techs far better (and is equally untrustworthy).

Sully is stuck between protectives but otherwise powerful. I nevertheless give him a minus thanks to his positioning, rating him #2 on the map.

Ranked predictions by likelihood:

1. Peter - Military (conquest, diplomation, or domination)
2. Peter - Space
3. Sully - Space
4. Pacal - peacevassal culture
5. Sully - military

Pericles is a reasonably strong leader but he's too likely to be harassed (monty and peter are both likely to target him), however he's the dark horse (if they somehow leave him alone, he could become very dangerous as a techer and win culture or space).

Lincoln is toast on this map. Churchill will not be liked due to peaceweight except by lincoln. While less of a punching bag it's hard to see him winning. It *is* possible if something weird happens and he gets some cities via dogpiling (his unitprob is also 30 IIRC), but I can hardly predict such an upset.

Wang doing culture is also possible but similarly unlikely. I can see it happening if he monopolizes religions though.

Overall, this one is far more difficult to predict than the last map, which was almost instantly obvious to me.

I hope you enjoy the added unpredictability. I agree that religions will make a difference here. Pacal II seems to be the obvious competitor to grab the religions, but we can't write off Montezuma and Wang Kon either.

I'm a little surprised at Peter's high ranking, though. I thought he had the worst start in the map, but you are right that Peter has a good chance of taking out Pericles.

I enjoy the peacevassal culture for Pacal II, he'll probably do it to someone like Suleiman or Peter.

What an interesting read! More!
(Wait, we could easily do this ourselves! That should be interesting as well! I'm off!)

Nice, tell me how your game went!

Game 2 punditry:

Wang's starting area is very nice but I don't see him winning it, I just think he's a weak AI. If Pacal was there it would be a different story as being tucked away at the end of the world would suit his supertech peacemongery. Or Pericles.

Pericles as it is has good land nearby but his success is highly dependent on which way both Peter and Abe expand at the start. Unfortunately Peter starts with mining so I expect he will settle the nice copper site towards Pericles. Bad for Peri, good for Monty.

The most eyecatching feature is of course Monty v Peter on the western lobe of the peanut, and you have to think how that turns out is going to be a major factor determining the result. It's a big wildcard and I have no guesses.

It seems fairly well balanced map (good tweaking DMOC) so it's hard not to go with the percentages and predict the civs best known for winning games to take it somehow. Peter or Sully. I go with Suieman just because he has a less complicated neighbour situation. It will take him a while to clear the jungle but will finish strongly.

(Edit: Lincoln and Pacal have some of the best land around them - lots of gold and floodplains - but you still really can't pick them to win because they're such milquetoasts. Maybe Pacal by culture if he's really lucky and stays out of trouble).

I agree that Wang is a weak AI, but he does have the land to remain competitive for space and culture as long as Suleiman leaves him alone.

I was indeed wondering about a Montezuma vs. Peter war, which is likely to be equally matched if they do war. However, since their base peaceweights are 0 and 1 respectively, I don't think a war is likely.

With enough of a land advantage, it's hard to dislodge even relatively peaceful AI's, so I wouldn't write off Lincoln and Pacal II immediately.

i'd guees Suleiman wins. unless someone gets diplo or something else happens as always.

Good prediction, we'll see if that's true.

This is a great idea, i'll be watching closely and might do this myself

Tell me how your game goes, just for comparison purposes.

I guess imperialist AIs will win... unless it's Shaka

Shaka is in game 3. I hope he gets rolled a strong start.

Seeing how well imperialistic AI do makes you wonder whether the trait is really as bad as people say it is

I'm going for the blackhorse pick here and choose WK space followed by Pacal space. I don't think the warmongers will get much traction on this map.

Hey, the more predictions the better.

I have A LOT of free time atm and could run, say, game 3 and post it after game 2 has been done, unfortunately i cant pm anybody until i make 3 more posts so does that sound like a good idea? also i would need advice on balancing the starts (add a bit of audience participation)

Sure, you can start game 3! Just make sure the settings are the same (I think mine are all default settings and deity, normal speed). PM me the map once you pass the 5/5 requirement just so I can see how things are going.

This one will seem to be even more intersting than the one before! I see that Monty wins when he reaches the modern era....

I hope Montezuma wins domination here.

I have a lot of faith in Pacal to win this one. 2 gold + 'nuff floodplains should pull him ahead.

Yeah, Pacal II has always done well vs. me when given lots of land. See my Boudica/Immortal game for an example.

Some thoughts:
Monty: Solid start with double cows, each are 6 yield tiles (Although brown cows are an odd "food" resource imo.) Some solid land to grow into, a bit of rivers, wines, some gems, I can see him getting really out of hand.
Peter: Same deal, only with a few more mediocre seafood cities thrown in, and some conflict with Pericles. Whoever snags that block site first will have the upper hand there. And sooner or later, Monty is going to declare on Peter. Unless some crazy religion hugging goes on, if Peter doesn't get to that narrow spit of land between him and Pericles, it's him against Monty, and Monty seems to have better land.

Yes, exactly my thoughts.

Peace weights = they are pleased on contact. A DoW on Peter can happen but is decidedly less likely than a target on pericles or lincoln.

I forgot Pacal actually has a low peace weight (while not very aggressive, peace weights technically aren't the same thing as aggression). This means that the people who would DoW him are actually churchill/lincoln. With that in mind, I move his chances up a bit.

Religious distribution is a bit of a wild card on this map.

Wang has excellent land and will out-perform his usual suckage, but he won't be liked probably.

Wang might luck out with Suleiman leaving him alone, which sets the stage for a strong finish by him. However, I agree that he probably won't be the actual winning AI.

-----

PS: I think I'll have time to run many games, but if anyone wants to volunteer like Everyday asked, then please let me know. The only thing I want to ask is that I do game #6.

1 more thing - please be sure to note who wins the "Races" (such as Music) and label the date. Don't forget the save 1 turn before game ends so we can check the replay.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I did my own run of this to post 1500 AD, with some surprises and some things that did not surprise me. I'm not stealing thunder though, nobody gets those results until DMOC does it first .

 

[alfon]

I wont be able to try it for a while, because Im buying a new disc in the US and I have to wait for it to come to Spain. (my other disc broke arggg)

 

[Soirana]

doesn't 3.19 ensure no-disk option?

 

[DMOC]

I played until 2000 BC (first 50 turns).

Heh. Neither Montezuma nor Wang Kon were able to found religions.

I do find it weird how so many AI's started off with a settler as their first build in their second cities.

 

[DMOC]

I did my own run of this to post 1500 AD, with some surprises and some things that did not surprise me. I'm not stealing thunder though, nobody gets those results until DMOC does it first .

Our saves might be different, I realized that the save I put up oroginally didn't contain my changes (e.g. no gems near Monty) so I had to upload a second save.

 

[bestje]

This is a really interesting idea.
Particularly as it gives a close look into how the AI performs without our interference!

 

[bestrfcplayer]

This one looks to be REALLY interesting now, since Monty nor WK founded a religon. But still: Let's go Monty, let's go!!!!!!

 

[DMOC]

Game 1, Round 2


Part 1


Game 2 for the first round is now underway.

With my spies infiltrating everyone, I could see what they were researching. To no surprise, I found Pacal II researching Polytheism - intent on founding Hinduism. However, to my surprise, Montezuma wasn't researching a religious tech! He was researching Animal Husbandry. Well, that kind of makes sense consider his two cows, but still Montezuma could do with the benefit of a religion for happiness and diplomacy.

Here's where everyone's second city went:

Spoiler :

Peter founds Buddhism. (Pacal, naturally, founded Hinduism and Judaism.)

Spoiler :

The overall map, in 2000 BC.

Spoiler :

Sucks to be you, Peter.

Spoiler :

As far as city count goes:

• Montezuma was the last to get his second city (founded on turn 7).
• Suleiman was first to three cities.
• Pericles was first to four cities.
• Montezuma was first to five cities.

As far as wonders go:

• Lincoln built Stonehenge. (While building monuments in his other cities )
• Pacal II built The Great Wall.

So ... we have an interesting diplomatic situation. Peter and Pacal II founded their own religions, and Pericles is following Peter's religion (Buddhism). No wars are being planned yet. Pacal II will be a cultural beast on this map. Also, can anyone explain why the AI is such a big fan of building settlers as their first build in their second city?

Thus concludes part 1, up to turn 50/2000 BC. The next segment will continue this Sunday.

 

[Kid R]

Also, can anyone explain why the AI is such a big fan of building settlers as their first build in their second city?

I just started a few games and it looks like the first city 2 build is always a monument if the AI has mysticism by that point and isn't creative. The ones that need myst can get it on turn 5 if they try so it's touch and go for them. Otherwise as you point out it's nearly always a settler.

Just watching what the starting worker does it seems to be: first improve one special in the capital, then if there is one in the first ring of city 2 go over there and improve that (roading on the way). It seems to me worker first would usually be better but maybe the coders decided there was too much risk of having idle workers at that stage when few worker techs are available. They do usually seem to build a worker second in the capital.

There are also occasional times that neither a settler or monument is queued and the AI builds a unit in both cities. Just from what I saw this may be either because rivals are really near, or the scouts have not found an attractive enough city 3 site. All just guesses though.

And of course it could be just to piss off the human player!

 

[Ignorant Teacher]

Man, this was a fantastic idea! Keep them coming! The way you narrate it is cool too.

 

[Zexx]

Interesting. In the test game I watched, the entire world more or less peaced out, and ran for space. Hannibal won a cultural victory, of all things. With a different religion neighbor, no less. It was very odd.

I still think Peter and Monty will come to blows, even if they share a religion. Unless it's allowed to flourish for some time, the border tensions should keep it at pleased, and Monty will declare at pleased, won't he?
Although Peter lucked out with his other neighbor being an easygoing chap with the shared religion.

PS: Is it just me, or is Suleiman poised to take a HUGE chunk of land? Pacal is reallly getting those settlers out slowly.
Also, that Barb city could signal a huge amount of land for another AI, depending on who grabs it: It'll form an anchor from which to expand further?

PPS: I'd love to see Pericles come out on top of this one.