Civ 4 vs. Civ 5?

Really? :confused: In almost every game of Civ 5 I play I'm declaring war on an obnoxious civ that insists on spamming my cities with its Prophets and Missionaries :mad:

Ah, my bad then, forgot the human player :crazyeye:

I only had AI in mind - in Civ IV some leaders are religious nuts and will contact you urging to accept their religion and you'll take a diplo hit if you don't. A few refusals to Isabella and bam - whom didn't you expect? In CiV leaders don't do that. Only 'hybrid' war via missionaries and prophets, but you can block them without diplo consequences.
 
Okay, but is this not pretty much a narrative that you are creating for yourself in your own mind
I believe, I should agree on that.

something explicitly supported by the game mechanics
You lost me here. :confused: If you could give a couple of specific examples?
 
I think one distinction worth mentioning is that Civ V essentially imposes its narrative upon you, while Civ IV is much more of a passive sandbox. As someone said, you may well need more imagination to get involved in the Civ IV 'story'.

Sometimes one does emerge organically, such as one game where Genghis started eating up and vassalising all the smaller states before getting to me (something that very rarely happens in Civ V, as few civs are coded for domination - warmongers tend to go to war with whoever's closest or has annoyed them most, but they rarely make a systematic effort to capture another civ's capital, let alone do the same for subsequent civs once their first rival is gone). But diplomacy in Civ IV is a mostly passive affair, as in older Civ games, that ticks up relationship modifiers over time when left alone and is only really useful as a way to trade technologies and resources now and then.

Civ V, with its more pronounced AI personalities, finite agreements that force you to engage in diplomacy, Congress/UN resolutions every X turns, and a tendency for AI civs to become actively hostile once they have a large enough military unless you focus on keeping them sweet, tends to demand you engage in its storytelling through its mechanics.

A downside to this is that the story is very often much the same, since the mechanics only really force the game in one direction; ultimately, the world partitions into diplomatic blobs of 2-3 civs apiece, ideologies emerge, and global war ensues. All that differs between playthroughs is which civs are on which side. Prior to the introduction of ideology in Gods & Kings (edit: Brave New World) the game's relationships were a little more complex (since ideological differences didn't force the breakup of game-long alliances), but the structure was nevertheless fairly similar.
 
You mean you haven't played either 4 or 5??? Idk.... do what I did, play 4 for a few thousand hours and then move on to 5 ;)
 
You lost me here. If you could give a couple of specific examples?

I think PhilBowles did much of that for me. Thank you Phil! I see the RP as continuum between the player making it all up and the game providing explicit narrative.

In IV, there are a few concrete events: Demands under threat of war that the player adopt a religion or government type. Are there other things that I am forgetting?

V lacks those two, but otherwise the AIs are pretty direct about letting you know what they like or dislike about the players choices. And the player has lots of choices to make...
 
I apologize if this isn't the right place.

I'm deciding between the Civ 4 and Civ 5 as my next Civ game. I've played 2, 3, Revolution, and Alpha Centauri.

In your honest opinion which would you buy if you were only getting 1?

I like Civ 4 a lot (and have the game) because it has more interesting random events and many more Leaders to face per Civ. I keep it in case Steam gives me problems or I have no internet.

I like Civ 5 because the Leaders in that are much more realistic (except for a couple of fantasy ones) and even attempt to speak in their native tongue. I also like the one unit per hex military use as it makes it far easier for me to understand what exactly is happening in a war.
Steam is the only reason why Civ 5 loses really.
 
@PhilBowles
@beetle

Thanks for the explanation, guys, I think I understand now. Although I still don't get how can you qualify Civ IV as 'passive'. For me, it's quite 'active'.

A downside to this is that the story is very often much the same, since the mechanics only really force the game in one direction; ultimately, the world partitions into diplomatic blobs of 2-3 civs apiece, ideologies emerge, and global war ensues. All that differs between playthroughs is which civs are on which side. Prior to the introduction of ideology in Gods & Kings (edit: Brave New World) the game's relationships were a little more complex (since ideological differences didn't force the breakup of game-long alliances), but the structure was nevertheless fairly similar.

Yes, that's my gripe. You are straightjacketed into the same story. Thousands of years of friendship, come industrial era, the lottery of choice happens and oops, we must part our ways out of a sudden. Unless, my friend, you would like to denounce your ideological brethren, perhaps? And become a pariah among them? So that later, when I come after you anyway, they don't help you. Never did that btw - denounce someone from my ideological camp on request. Will have to try this out :)
 
Although I still don't get how can you qualify Civ IV as 'passive'.
Well, I am probably forgetting stuff, it has been a couple years. So I am counting on you to remind why I might fondly remembering from an RP perspective!

You are straightjacketed into the same story. Thousands of years of friendship, come industrial era, the lottery of choice happens and oops, we must part our ways out of a sudden.
Eh, at least it is a story. III, IV, and V pre-BNW had no narrative save what the player imagined. Also, it is not so dissimilar from history. In WWII, Russia was with the Allies and Sweden with the Axis. Crazy!
 
@PhilBowles
@beetle

Thanks for the explanation, guys, I think I understand now. Although I still don't get how can you qualify Civ IV as 'passive'. For me, it's quite 'active'.

I describe it as passive because, unlike Civ V where your relationships with other powers automatically deteriorate over time without new 'injections' of positive relationship modifiers, by and large Civ IV relationships are static or improve without intervention, due to the positive effects of open borders and trade and the fact that there's never a need to renew them, unless you actively do something that civ disapproves of (such as adopt a contrary civic or state religion).

At least in my most recent experience, diplomacy in Civ IV is functionally (as opposed to narratively, as you may well choose to interact more if it suits your story) a trade screen you only need to pay attention to if you want to trade stuff. Even if relations do deteriorate, there isn't actually a great deal you can do about it as, once again, all the diplomacy screen lets you do is trade - so you just open it once in a while to bribe someone by giving them gifts.

Yes, that's my gripe. You are straightjacketed into the same story. Thousands of years of friendship, come industrial era, the lottery of choice happens and oops, we must part our ways out of a sudden. Unless, my friend, you would like to denounce your ideological brethren, perhaps? And become a pariah among them? So that later, when I come after you anyway, they don't help you. Never did that btw - denounce someone from my ideological camp on request. Will have to try this out :)

BNW was great generally, but ideologies were a big misstep at least in the way they were implemented with the AI. It's not impossible to retain friendships with ideological opponents when you have enough positive modifiers, but it takes a lot of work.
 
Well, I am probably forgetting stuff, it has been a couple years. So I am counting on you to remind why I might fondly remembering from an RP perspective!


Eh, at least it is a story. III, IV, and V pre-BNW had no narrative save what the player imagined.

I think that's a point in favour of the older games (including G&K); the best stories emerge organically from gameplay rather than being imposed. I think the best storytelling I've experienced in games is in Crusader Kings II.
 
In response to the whole narrative conversation, I meant the one that you create in your head lol. I'm highly imaginative I think.
 
At least in my most recent experience, diplomacy in Civ IV is functionally (as opposed to narratively, as you may well choose to interact more if it suits your story) a trade screen you only need to pay attention to if you want to trade stuff. Even if relations do deteriorate, there isn't actually a great deal you can do about it as, once again, all the diplomacy screen lets you do is trade - so you just open it once in a while to bribe someone by giving them gifts.

You can also gift cities for diplo+. You can beg for a little something to have 10 turns of guaranteed peace. You can ask/bribe them to change civics or religion, so that they spoil relations with somebody else and improve them with you.

After Feudalism warring can become tricky. There may be risk that your target will become vassal to some greater power in the course of war, which will bring that power against you. So, when you can't take on more than one enemy at a time, first you must try to isolate your target diplomatically. What does it take to befriend potential masters, so they don't take your target as a vassal, or to become pleased/friendly to you, so they can't attack you? And here you juggle civics and religions (if possible), consider giving in to demands, ask/bribe them to change their civics and religion, possibly try to found some city and gift it, so that you finally get to the desired level of relations. And bribing other AIs can be quite expensive, because you can use techs for bribery. You must really weigh pros and cons of catapulting somebody too far ahead. And if you succeed this manipulation against high odds, and your target stands there in the corner alone and in the cold, the satisfaction from all this activity is very big. I see it all as diplomatic activity and it may be quite, erm, 'active' :)

I find that in CiV you can bribe away potential troublemakers much easier, although given enough land, you do run a risk to grow some AI enormity and a big future headache.

It's not impossible to retain friendships with ideological opponents when you have enough positive modifiers, but it takes a lot of work.
After some time I discovered, that ideologically different Theodora is quite prone to return to being friendly with you if you don't annoy her and behave in WC.

I think that's a point in favour of the older games (including G&K); the best stories emerge organically from gameplay rather than being imposed.
Yes! All of my yes :goodjob:
 
In response to the whole narrative conversation, I meant the one that you create in your head lol. I'm highly imaginative I think.

For me its only the other way around. When i play, i only think about how i beat the :) :) :) :):) :) :) :):) :) :) :):) :) :) :) out of the AI as fast as possible.

When i look at the work, i keep seeing the world leaders play civ.
 
You can also gift cities for diplo+.

That's still a trade - and I did mention giving gifts as a bribe.

You can beg for a little something to have 10 turns of guaranteed peace.

Also achieved through bribing...

You can ask/bribe them to change civics or religion, so that they spoil relations with somebody else and improve them with you.

You can, but this falls into the optional category and plays along with roleplaying more than anything. Especially as it's very dependent on the civs' personality how much they care about either. If you don't have one of the two or three civs that care overmuch about religion on your map, this is cut off as a meaningful option. And even where you exercise the civic-switching option, if the AI civ decides it wants good relations with the civ that really hates bureaucrats, it will just change back again after accepting your bribe anyway.

So, it's possible but far from required, and very gamey and counterimmersive.

After Feudalism warring can become tricky. There may be risk that your target will become vassal to some greater power in the course of war, which will bring that power against you. So, when you can't take on more than one enemy at a time, first you must try to isolate your target diplomatically.

All very nice, but relies on you being warlike (since an aggressor will rarely become a vassal unless you not only beat them, but actively invade their territory rather than accepting peace). So this is only relevant when pursuing a military strategy, and moreover when doing so in a context where you don't have overwhelming force - since by the time another civ agrees to become anyone's vassal, you don't usually much care about it and are free to engage a more threatening target. If civs actually agreed to vassalise for protection and political reasons in Civ IV that might work, but as it is AIs only vassalise if they're on the verge of extinction or at least have run out of military forces.

What does it take to befriend potential masters, so they don't take your target as a vassal, or to become pleased/friendly to you, so they can't attack you? And here you juggle civics and religions (if possible), consider giving in to demands, ask/bribe them to change their civics and religion, possibly try to found some city and gift it, so that you finally get to the desired level of relations. And bribing other AIs can be quite expensive, because you can use techs for bribery. You must really weigh pros and cons of catapulting somebody too far ahead. And if you succeed this manipulation against high odds, and your target stands there in the corner alone and in the cold, the satisfaction from all this activity is very big. I see it all as diplomatic activity and it may be quite, erm, 'active' :)

What this basically amounts to is saying that the Civ IV diplo system gives you good narrative options for engaging in diplomacy if you choose to go down that route, which I believe I already said. Functionally there are still many cases where you simply have no need to do any of that, be it because you're playing non-aggressively, you're the dominant faction, your target is not close enough to any potential threat that it doesn't much matter if they declare war on you, or you simply go to war against your prime targets before Feudalism arises. And as much narrative as you want to inject into it, whether bribing someone not to declare war on you because they're more powerful, or bribing someone not to declare war on you because they might accept a lesser civ as a vassal, in functional terms you're still just ... bribing someone not to declare war on you.

For all the shortcomings in AI behaviour and that BNW introduced mechanically, I'm delighted that Civ V moved away from diplomacy purely being a trade screen in which to obtain bonuses and prevent the other guy declaring war long enough to finish off your current target before moving onto them. That works for Total War (the clue is in the name), but I doubt you'd credit the Total War series as being great exercises in storytelling, let alone examples of sophisticated diplomatic systems in a computer game.

I find that in CiV you can bribe away potential troublemakers much easier, although given enough land, you do run a risk to grow some AI enormity and a big future headache.

I'm more interested in the fact that in Civ V avoiding warfare until you want to kill Civ X is not the primary function of diplomacy, and that as most agreements are bilateral you don't get free bonuses every so often by either exchanging things you need for worthless baubles (except in gold-for-resources trades when this is literally what you're doing, but it's been argued since Civ V released that that ability should be dropped) or simply being strong enough that other civs will randomly pop up to give you presents.

Whatever the older Civ games' strengths - and there are many, both in gameplay and in narrative - the diplomatic system (not just the diplomatic AI) has been atrocious throughout, and I've always been baffled by people who laud it as one of Civ IV's - particularly - selling points. In Civ V the AI is still atrocious, and the new diplomatic system is less AI-friendly to boot, but as an actual framework it's light years ahead of anything else in the series.
 
Civ4 and it's not even close. Civ5 is a mediocre game at best with some decent production values. 4 isn't the best game in the series and has some pretty glaring flaws but it is definitely one of the most friendly games for a modder, and has somewhat competent AI compared to the earlier games' issues.


I don't understand this point of view. You're saying that neither 4 nor 5 are the best game in the series?

3 was so simplistic and strategically shallow, I don't see how it could possibly be claimed as the "best", although I did spend hundreds of hours playing it and having fun.
2 had the most "stuff" in it. 2 had more buildings and whatnot, but was also very strategically shallow. It was more a toy and less of a game. You merely toyed with the AI. It was like sitting down and playing a game of Sim City. Now, I had fun playing Sim City too... but that's not at all what I want when I sit down to a game of Civ now. When I win a game of Civ I really have to try hard to do it, and it feels like an accomplishment, especially when the AI is good enough that it gives me a challenge without having a billion different buffs and cheats.
 
I don't understand this point of view. You're saying that neither 4 nor 5 are the best game in the series?

3 was so simplistic and strategically shallow, I don't see how it could possibly be claimed as the "best", although I did spend hundreds of hours playing it and having fun.
2 had the most "stuff" in it. 2 had more buildings and whatnot, but was also very strategically shallow. It was more a toy and less of a game. You merely toyed with the AI. It was like sitting down and playing a game of Sim City. Now, I had fun playing Sim City too... but that's not at all what I want when I sit down to a game of Civ now. When I win a game of Civ I really have to try hard to do it, and it feels like an accomplishment, especially when the AI is good enough that it gives me a challenge without having a billion different buffs and cheats.

So, it wasn't Civ 5, Civ IV, Civ III, or Civ II? If only there was another entry in the series...
 
Getting back to the whole point of this thread, the one thing that both IV and V do *not* have is that victorious warrior cry upon taking a barbarian encampment.... I miss that most of all. :crazyeye:

I also use the sound of the Civ III warrior dying for "checkmate" in my chess program....
 
So, it wasn't Civ 5, Civ IV, Civ III, or Civ II? If only there was another entry in the series...

Hey I'm pretty old, but even I'm not old enough to have had any experience with Civ 1. I never played it, nor did any of my friends.

Speaking of funny sounds, I miss the roar the swordsman made in Civ3, it made me crack up.
 
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