Civ 5 and AW (Always War games)

[ThERat]

I am following with great interest the new developments in Civ 5. As some people might know, I am a huge warmonger at heart and have been playing (and am still playing) lots of Always War games.
For those new to our boards, this means that you declare war on anyone in the game the moment you meet them and never ever make peace until you destroy them (or get beaten yourself).

This concept has come up in Civ 3 and is amazingly addictive for me. We have played a lot of AW games in the Civ 3 SG forum and still do so. Playing against the AI throwing waves after waves of units at you, coming back from behind, gaining your first MGL and army, all great experiences I do not want to miss. One of the most famous victories for us was the AW game on standard deity pangaea, a totally amazing feat , see Handy 21

In Civ 4 , AW is an actual game option you can select at the beginning of the game. However, several elements of Civ 4 have sort of broken the fun element of AW and the community never really played that many AW games. there is one crazy AW game for Civ 4 vanilla in the SG section, a good read in my mind

One of the biggest problems in my mind in Civ 4 was the inability to form a government that does provide NO war weariness, thus you had to actually be very mindful of happiness rather than warfare. Another was the weird concept of suicide catapults, the absence of armies amongst other stuff. Of course the laggy game engine for larger maps didn't really enhance our AW experience.


So, I was really looking forward to Civ 5 to give us back the fun of AW games. I am glad the developers take bold steps to change the game (we do not need another civ 3 or 4). However, I do not know at this point in time whether the changes we know so far are appealing for warmongers.
We hear of 1 unit per tile and the consequence of much less units. This means nerfed warfare (I hope it doesn't). Maybe the new strategy elements might make the game interesting or they might turn this into a MM nightmare of shifting your units around the battlefield.
I could imagine great strategic battles with ranged units in the background taking out the enemy, using bottlenecks of the map to defeat the AI. Grabbing crucial resources for more superior units (remember there is a cap now on units per resource).
And what about city states? How would they influence AW games?

All in all, I do not know what way the game will go as we do not have enough information. But I sure hope we will get a different yet exciting and fun game play from Civ 5 for warmongers.

Any thoughts about this? Anyone?

 

[Ellestar]

I think that maybe Civ 5 will not be balanced for a small front with many AIs trying to break in. There will be enough space for 2v1 war, but not for 5v1 or something like that. With a small choke point and 1 unit per hex, it may look like an endless field of AI units with no way to kill them faster than enemy builds them, or something After all, this time a size of the front limits the maximum damage dealt. Well, maybe AIs will not let each other to heal so a front will be moving forward.

Navy should become more important so expect more landings (not just cannon fodder too).

I don't think it will be too much micro for you. The games you linked look like too much micro to me (at least i don't want to play every game like that), i mean, 100 kills in 10 turns and 60 cities to micromanage? Well, i microed 450 Super Clean Fusion Formers (workers) in one SMAC game on full manual so i guess i'm a micro junkie too, but still 60 cities is kinda boring.

Experienced units will probably be less strong than armies in Civ 3, but stronger than Civ 4 units (that is, they'll not die that much if you're careful), if Panzer General/Fantasy General is any indication. Random will play a lesser role because units will not be killed in one fight. So, i think Civ 5 should feel more like Civ 3 than like Civ 4.

One of the biggest problems in my mind in Civ 4 was the inability to form a government that does provide NO war weariness, thus you had to actually be very mindful of happiness rather than warfare. Another was the weird concept of suicide catapults, the absence of armies amongst other stuff. Of course the laggy game engine for larger maps didn't really enhance our AW experience.

Why don't you just mod War weariness out? Set BASE_WAR_WEARINESS_MULTIPLIER to 0 and there is no problem

 

[Ellestar]

I think that maybe Civ 5 will not be balanced for a small front with many AIs trying to break in. There will be enough space for 2v1 war, but not for 5v1 or something like that. With a small choke point and 1 unit per hex, it may look like an endless field of AI units with no way to kill them faster than enemy builds them, or something After all, this time a size of the front limits the maximum damage dealt. Well, maybe AIs will not let each other to heal so a front will be moving forward.

Navy should become more important so expect more landings (not just cannon fodder too).

I don't think it will be too much micro for you. The games you linked look like too much micro to me (at least i don't want to play every game like that), i mean, 100 kills in 10 turns and 60 cities to micromanage? Well, i microed 450 Super Clean Fusion Formers (workers) in one SMAC game on full manual so i guess i'm a micro junkie too, but still 60 cities is kinda boring.

Experienced units will probably be less strong than armies in Civ 3, but stronger than Civ 4 units (that is, they'll not die that much if you're careful), if Panzer General/Fantasy General is any indication. Random will play a lesser role because units will not be killed in one fight. So, i think Civ 5 should feel more like Civ 3 than like Civ 4.

One of the biggest problems in my mind in Civ 4 was the inability to form a government that does provide NO war weariness, thus you had to actually be very mindful of happiness rather than warfare. Another was the weird concept of suicide catapults, the absence of armies amongst other stuff. Of course the laggy game engine for larger maps didn't really enhance our AW experience.

Why don't you just mod War weariness out? Set BASE_WAR_WEARINESS_MULTIPLIER to 0 and there is no problem

 

[Cashew]

Every teamer is an always war game; so, I have no idea what you're talking about with saying the community doesn't play them much anymore.

 

[ThERat]

@Cashew, I am talking about SP game not MP, which I think you are refering to

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

If there is an "Always War" option in CivV, then I don't think City-States will last long enough to impact on the game, because everyone is going to be hell-bent on absorbing them into their respective empires !

Aussie.

 

[Thormodr]

I have enjoyed reading some of your exploits. It's always entertaining and a big challenge I'm sure.

I hope ciV can allow you to continue to do what you do.

 

[ThERat]

I have enjoyed reading some of your exploits

exploits?

Well, I do hope that they make it possible for us to play AW games. One thing that has hardly been touched as everyone is talking about religion, 1 unit per tile and city states are the types of government that are being overhauled yet again. I do hope we get some form of government that will be able to eliminate war weariness (and of course be penalised in other ways0

 

[Thormodr]

exploits?

Well, I do hope that they make it possible for us to play AW games. One thing that has hardly been touched as everyone is talking about religion, 1 unit per tile and city states are the types of government that are being overhauled yet again. I do hope we get some form of government that will be able to eliminate war weariness (and of course be penalised in other ways0

I meant exploits as in accomplishments. I didn't mean to make it sound like you were cheating.