Civ 5 digital deluxe coming exclusively to Steam! Steamworks confirmed!

[eireksten]

Wow, I'm really bad at staying updated in this thread. Anyway, to Veneke's replies about the listed SP benefits. I never made any statements about them being the most awesome benefits there are, but I do consider them benefits, so I listed them

1. I'm not fully following the Civ community argument. Access to CFC doesn't add to the single-player offline experience, unless you download something from it, read an article etc. Also, you can't claim that Steam brings a benefit to the single-player offline experience if we already have said service, which we clearly do by virtue of these, and other, forums.

Sure, but now all players will have easy access (and knowledge) about said community. You can also use the friends lists to get to know other (also SP) players.

2. We already have this, though not in-game. To be honest, I've always avoided the in-game updating features of games where-ever possible, so I may be more biased than usual in this, but I'm not sure you could claim that as a benefit to the single-player offline experience. It doesn't add anything that we don't already have, if you follow my drift. Though I do think there could be an argument to be had that Steam may restrict certain types of mods, ones that directly compete with the Babylonian Civ special release for example. I've been told that this won't happen, but not by anyone from Steam, so I'm going to wait until I see someone from there say as such before I come down either way on this point.

To get that confirmation, you'd have to take it up with Firaxis, not Valve (Steam). They control the DLC (and rules for mods). Steam simply presents then with a framework for this feature, thus allowing them to (optionally) add it to the game. As the updating and installation of mods will be made more streamlined, I definitely consider this a benefit for SP players.

3. I presume you mean instant notification of updates or something similar? Don't we already have this? Steam can't tell you it's updated unless you connect to the internet. If you use in-game update module in Civ 4, you'll have the same net effect.

No, I mean that Steam updates your game automatically whenever an update is ready. Unless of course you turn this off for that particular game. So you really won't need to worry about updating/patching. It even forces Firaxis into accounting for the fact that save games should be backwards compatible across patches.

4. Steam Cloud? I could be mistaken, but we already have this service. I'm pretty sure I've downloaded save games from other people through these forums. Same as first two points though, it does make things like this easier. So on that basis it is a benefit, albeit a weak one.

That's not the same thing. I'm not talking about sending these things to other users. I'm talking about the option of storing your game data files (configurations and settings, save games, screenshots or whatever else) in relation with your account. With this option, if you start playing the game on another computer, all changes made previously will be there already. Same thing applies when formatting your computer. You won't need to worry about losing settings or save games. They are there as long as you log into your account.

5. Definitely agree.
6. Definitely agree.
7. I was unaware of this service. If a Mac version is released, then yes, it is a benefit. Otherwise, not really.

I'll be very surprised if a Mac version isn't (eventually) released.

8. Very weak, but it is a benefit of a sort.

I know many don't like achievements, but to have achievements through Steam will definitely be appreciated by many. If Firaxis puts some thought into the achievements and not just add loads of "Play very very much for a very very long time" kind of achievements, I think it could add to the replayability. Also, I appreciate comparing achievements with my friends on Steam.


Of course, you'll get the most out of Steam if you're online, especially when playing multiplayer. The only reason you are required to run Steam in the background for offline play is due to the license/account check. But you do get some benefits for single player offline as well. Going online every once in a while helps this out.

I'm not by any means claiming that Steam is a must for single player games. But the fact is, Civilization is no longer solely a single player game. MP play is more and more popular, and I recommend everyone to try it. So Steamworks most definitely benefit the game.

 

[Veneke]

Avs: It was a hypothetical situation regarding the online petition. Do you mean it's difficult to believe that more people play single-player than multi-player Civ?

Pyrodraulis: It wouldn't grow to that number because of a mixture of laziness, apathy and lack of organization, definitely. I have no idea how many people would be up for signing something like that. Also, the arguments against Steam are not "pointless". Whining is pointless, the reasons behind the whining are not.

Arstal: I agree entirely. I simply don't think there is enough of the older generation to do any significant damage or force any change whatsoever. I could, and hope, that I'm wrong however.

eireksten:

This thread moves quickly enough alright. I don't mean to knock your points, merely establish that they seem particularly weak (with one or two exceptions) from the perspective of someone who has and probably will, only ever play Civ in single-player.

Point 1: Again, I'll yield the argument that it makes an existing service easier, I just don't consider it a particularly good point. Point 2: Ah, that now is interesting. Again though, yes it's a benefit, it's just hardly a benefit worth mentioning considering existing services. Point 3: Ah, sorry, I misunderstood. I'm not convinced that's a benefit to be honest, especially when it may not be possible to make save games backwards compatible. I'm theorizing here so I'll yield the point, however, do you know is it possible to revert to an earlier patch? Point 4: Could just be I'm not following, but my impression is that you're basically saying that you can play the game on one computer and then follow it up on another? If so, fair enough. Point 8: Aye, though again it's like point 7, it's a dependable benefit.

I would be surprised if Civ became a predominately multi-player game given the nature of the genre. I have no doubt that the market will grow, but I simply don't think it's suited to that type of gameplay. We're both speculating here though. Also, yeah, I think we're all in agreement that for multi-player, Steam is fairly handy.

 

[Booky73]

I finally read nearly the whole thread and I just got the impression that those who don't have problems with steam think, those paranoid individuals who have, are only a vanishing minority.

This poll may not be representative but shows the big suspiciousness against Steam. After all its one of the biggest german communitiys and it seems that over 50% wont buy CiV with Steam.

(I try a translation:
Question: Do you buy CiV with Steam?
1st point: Yes, of course
2nd point: Yes, enforcedly
3rd point: No
4th point: No, but I will the moment it is available without any DRM)

 

[EmpireOfCats]

After all its one of the biggest german communitiys and it seems that over 50% wont buy CiV with Steam.

Three words: Wir werden sehen. It is one thing to answer a poll months and months ahead of time, when you don't even know what the game really will look like, and another to to say no when you've played the demo, read the (hopefully) glowing reviews, and your friends are going insane over the game and stumble to school or work the next morning with dark rings under their eyes, desperately struggling to stay awake after another night of duking it out with Monty.

Remember, too, that Steam gives Firaxis access to millions of new potential customers who even now are being made aware that Civ V is coming in September. I'll guess right now that the number of people who can resist buying Civ because of Steam is going to be a lot lower than the number of new people who say, okay, let's try it. Especially if there is a metascore of 90+ in September to guide them on.

Frankly, this discussion is starting to bore me, we've been through it all now. You guys who won't buy the game, fine, goodbye, see you in the Civ IV forum. For us others: Firaxis, can we have some more real game info to talk about? And how's that Mac port coming along?

 

[Booky73]

You're a little bit nervous, eh? I cant find any hint in my post that says: Oh no! No one in Germany will buy CiV, because hundreds and thousends of them choosed to do so!

I just gave a - poor - fact that the antipathy against Steam is not only an isolated opinion of some individuals around here.

 

[The_Coyote]

Remember, too, that Steam gives Firaxis access to millions of new potential customers who even now are being made aware that Civ V is coming in September. I'll guess right now that the number of people who can resist buying Civ because of Steam is going to be a lot lower than the number of new people who say, okay, let's try it. Especially if there is a metascore of 90+ in September to guide them on.

Sold and ads on Steam would be enough, for this point there is no need to incorporate Steam to the game (if not anticipating that Valve required 2K to include Steamworks in order to sell the game on Steam). So there is no new possible customer throu this step (or a new market full of new customers won).
But ok i was wrong, this statement was not right. There will be new customers, the ones who will buy the game only because of fact that it will use the steamwork features (and only them, no similar feature). But i would say that this number will be much much lower than a million.

 

[Chalks]

Frankly, this discussion is starting to bore me, we've been through it all now. You guys who won't buy the game, fine, goodbye, see you in the Civ IV forum. For us others: Firaxis, can we have some more real game info to talk about? And how's that Mac port coming along?

Agreed. Everyone is still going to buy the game, minus a handful of people most of whom will probably just give in anyway.

Bring on the new Civ 5 information!

 

[LegendJRG]

Kind of budding into the conversation but yes Veneke you can play any of your games, and their subsequent saves within said games, across multiple computers and platforms if the game has a mac version. I do it frequently between friends places and lan centers for many different games. I've never once had a problem with steam and quite enjoy it though I always thought it'd be a minor annoyance and never used it till I had to for WH40k Dawn of War 2 but I hardly notice it now and it has alot of nice features.

 

[EmpireOfCats]

You're a little bit nervous, eh?

Actually, no. I'm a very happy Steam user and cannot for the life of me understand what the problem here is. The important part, though, is that it is not my problem. Steam makes my life so much easier. I like Steam. This is good. Sorry you guys won't be there.

My problem is the Mac port. What makes me nervous is that it doesn't seem like Firaxis has seen the light yet in this point, and is still pretending that it's the 90's.

 

[Tasunke]

So you don't think Firaxis will support Mac ports?

 

[Commander Bello]

So you don't think Firaxis will support Mac ports?

Has there been an announcement of a Mac-version yet?

 

[EmpireOfCats]

So you don't think Firaxis will support Mac ports?

A "port" is so 90's, that's my problem. Ports suck, as we Mac users found out the hard way with the Aspyr port of Civ IV. I ended up buying the Windows edition after getting tired of just about every single game crashing and waiting for BtS. Pathetic.

Firaxis should release an OS X version right out of the box. This is not rocket science, Blizzard has been doing it forever, and Valve has said their new code gets compiled for both systems in parallel. You might have heard that Steam has come to Mac, and it's great.

If we're talking about a port, it will be late, probably suck, and annoy me no end because then I have to keep a Windows partition around for just one (1) game. Everything else I like is either OS X native by now or so old I can run it fine in VirtualBox.

 

[Chalks]

A "port" is so 90's, that's my problem. Ports suck, as we Mac users found out the hard way with the Aspyr port of Civ IV. I ended up buying the Windows edition after getting tired of just about every single game crashing and waiting for BtS. Pathetic.

Firaxis should release an OS X version right out of the box. This is not rocket science, Blizzard has been doing it forever, and Valve has said their new code gets compiled for both systems in parallel. You might have heard that Steam has come to Mac, and it's great.

If we're talking about a port, it will be late, probably suck, and annoy me no end because then I have to keep a Windows partition around for just one (1) game. Everything else I like is either OS X native by now or so old I can run it fine in VirtualBox.

Now that steamworks is confirmed and is mac compatible, you've got to wonder where the big obstacle to this is. It MUST be pretty standardised to get DirectX graphics and sound to run on Macs since it's something every game has to achieve to become cross platform. The networking, content distribution, DRM and updates are obviously cross platform now.

So what's the sticking point? I can't believe that something like the AI or the combat mechanics could be platform specific... but that's pretty much all I can think of.

 

[Veneke]

Kind of budding into the conversation but yes Veneke you can play any of your games, and their subsequent saves within said games, across multiple computers and platforms if the game has a mac version. I do it frequently between friends places and lan centers for many different games. I've never once had a problem with steam and quite enjoy it though I always thought it'd be a minor annoyance and never used it till I had to for WH40k Dawn of War 2 but I hardly notice it now and it has alot of nice features.

Aye, that was what I thought he was saying. I'm not convinced how much value that is though. I mean, let's say you pop along to your friends house. You're going to need to download the game, and install anyway, the only difference being that you won't have to cart the disks around the place. The save game files you can upload just about anywhere, if you bother to look, and you can download them again for exactly that purpose. LAN games? I'm not entirely following the real benefit of this. You borrow a computer (if you're bringing your own then the argument for Steam in that context is sunk already), log in to your account, and you have to download and install as before. I've read in a few places that some games have a limited number of installs as well, so that feature in itself is limited if that's case, and even if it's not, it's fairly weak really. Before, we used to bring the disks, more recently, you brought your laptop, now all we have to do is turn up and remember a password? The payoff though for this is that you have to spend 20-40 minutes installing and doing all that fiddly nonsense, and then have to uninstall it at the end, and hope that your password hasn't been compromised. So you probably won't save any time. There is the hassle of carrying your laptop alright, but laptops aren't all that heavy. If you're a desktop only kinda bloke, then there might be an argument there. So the only real advantage of Steam that isn't covered by something else already from this particular point is that if you don't have a laptop, and don't want to carry the disks with you, then Steam will allow you to travel more so than you could previously.

Like I said, weak.

By the by, I'm a Steam user myself. My experience with it has been somewhat different to your own, and it is a minor (often major) annoyance that I'd really rather not have to deal with. Nonetheless I do, and so I have, as I have no doubt others will as well. It's features though, deal primarily with the multi-player aspect of things, coalescing existing services into one single area, and bringing very limited advantages that sound much better than they actually are.

 

[The_J]

Now that steamworks is confirmed and is mac compatible, you've got to wonder where the big obstacle to this is. It MUST be pretty standardised to get DirectX graphics and sound to run on Macs since it's something every game has to achieve to become cross platform. The networking, content distribution, DRM and updates are obviously cross platform now.

So what's the sticking point? I can't believe that something like the AI or the combat mechanics could be platform specific... but that's pretty much all I can think of.

Yes, but the graphics, sound, etc. are still plattform dependend.
You're confusing steamworks and Valve's own source engine.
Their engine and steamworks has been ported, that doesn't mean anything for any other game out there. The devs still have to port their games theirselfs (or have to pay someone).

 

[Chalks]

Yes, but the graphics, sound, etc. are still plattform dependend.
You're confusing steamworks and Valve's own source engine.
Their engine and steamworks has been ported, that doesn't mean anything for any other game out there. The devs still have to port their games theirselfs (or have to pay someone).

No, not confused at all - in fact, I directly (haha) refer to DirectX graphics and sound in the very post you quoted.

 

[The_J]

I see, i see, but steamworks has nothing to do with 3D graphics and sound, right ?

 

[Chalks]

I see, i see, but steamworks has nothing to do with 3D graphics and sound, right ?

Yeah, but the conversion from DirectX to Mac compliant code has been done literally hundreds and hundreds of times, it's difficult understand how there isn't a standard reusable way to do it.

The networking/file system stuff is the other sticking point, but now steam pretty much handles all of that then it looks like it should be pretty smooth to create a port.

 

[The Almighty dF]

Yeah, but the conversion from DirectX to Mac compliant code has been done literally hundreds and hundreds of times, it's difficult understand how there isn't a standard reusable way to do it.

The networking/file system stuff is the other sticking point, but now steam pretty much handles all of that then it looks like it should be pretty smooth to create a port.

Macs also have a very.... -odd- way of handling memory, which is part of why the Civ4 port sucked.

 

[The_J]

Yeah, but the conversion from DirectX to Mac compliant code has been done literally hundreds and hundreds of times, it's difficult understand how there isn't a standard reusable way to do it.

But steamworks doesn't do this, right?