Civ Illustrated #1 (Know Your Enemy)

Kaitzilla · Jun 25, 2019

djdazi180 said:
Thanks for the reasearching.

Does this diplo modifier only affect the PVassalage or every other point of Diplo as well?

I think this hidden diplo modifier only affects peace vassalage.

Anysense said:
Do normal rules apply to tech trading between vassals? Or do they, perhaps, always trade anything, as they do with their master?

Nobody knows how vassals trade with each other as far as I know. :dunno:

I would assume normal rules.

Yes, a vassal will always be willing to trade anything with their master.

This is even better than Friendly civs who will trade any tech except the ones that unlock space parts.
Space part techs will make the AI say (we'd rather win the game, thank you very much).
These techs are Superconductors, Genetics, Fiber Optics, Fusion, Satellites, Composites, and Ecology.

Interestingly, the AI will also say (we'd rather win the game, thank you very much) if the human tries to broker peace between a much larger AI (2.5 times as many land tiles as the human) and a 2nd AI at war with each other.
https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...very-much-question-about-ai-reasoning.627629/

Anysense · Jun 26, 2019

Kaitzilla said:
Interestingly, the AI will also say (we'd rather win the game, thank you very much) if the human tries to broker peace between a much larger AI (2.5 times as many land tiles as the human) and a 2nd AI at war with each other.
https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...very-much-question-about-ai-reasoning.627629/

Even if 2nd AI is 5 times as large as the human player?

djdazi180 · Jun 26, 2019

Anysense said:
Even if 2nd AI is 5 times as large as the human player?

Set up a game with WB. Louis is 3x my size and Gandhi 3x the size of Louis.

Just as is:

After gifting Louis a few MechInfs:

Kaitzilla · Jul 2, 2019

Anysense said:
Even if 2nd AI is 5 times as large as the human player?

Let me check.

djdazi180 said:
Set up a game with WB. Louis is 3x my size and Gandhi 3x the size of Louis.

Just as is:

After gifting Louis a few MechInfs:

Oh!
Thanks djdazi180 for testing this, I was clearly wrong. :love:

The amount of land tiles needed for the player to broker a Cease Fire between 2 AI is way more complicated then I thought!

Check out this test game.

Spoiler :

Test #1:
Human 9 land tiles
Sitting Bull 27 land tiles
Huayna Capac 50 land tiles

When brokering a ceasefire between the stronger HC and weaker Sitting Bull, HC will sign a ceasefire.

Huayna Capac gets 51 land tiles and then he says "We'd rather win the game." :hmm:

Next,
Test #2:
Human 20 land tiles
Sitting Bull 27 land tiles
Huayna Capac 51 land tiles

When brokering a ceasefire between the stronger HC and weaker Sitting Bull, HC still says "We'd rather win the game."

The human player gets 21 land tiles, and then Huayna Capac will sign a ceasefire with Sitting Bull. :hmm:

I can't make any sense out of these numbers. :dunno:

The 2.5 times number of land tiles is not showing up in either of these tests.

Whisker · Jul 16, 2019

Kaitzilla said:
Let me check.

Oh!
Thanks djdazi180 for testing this, I was clearly wrong.

The amount of land tiles needed for the player to broker a Cease Fire between 2 AI is way more complicated then I thought!

Check out this test game.

Spoiler :

Test #1:
Human 9 land tiles
Sitting Bull 27 land tiles
Huayna Capac 50 land tiles

When brokering a ceasefire between the stronger HC and weaker Sitting Bull, HC will sign a ceasefire.

Huayna Capac gets 51 land tiles and then he says "We'd rather win the game."

Next,
Test #2:
Human 20 land tiles
Sitting Bull 27 land tiles
Huayna Capac 51 land tiles

When brokering a ceasefire between the stronger HC and weaker Sitting Bull, HC still says "We'd rather win the game."

The human player gets 21 land tiles, and then Huayna Capac will sign a ceasefire with Sitting Bull.

I can't make any sense out of these numbers.
The 2.5 times number of land tiles is not showing up in either of these tests.

@Kaitzilla
On test #2, 2.5*20=50 <51 & 2.5*21=52.5>51, so that agrees with brokerer needind atleast 1/2.5 of the bigger AIs land area. Test #1 is more confusing, maybe there's another rule about absolute power levels where brokerer's size is ignored if warring parties are close enough in power . Was there any difference between test 1 & 2 on soldier couts or land targets?

Whisker · Jul 16, 2019

I'm not familiar with the language used in the code, but I may have found the reason:
int landRatio = ((getTotalLand(true) * 100) / std::max(20, GET_TEAM(eTeam).getTotalLand(true)));
If I'm right, the bolded part of the code returns either 20 or number of land tiles, whichever is bigger.

So in example#1 even when our land area is way smaller, value returned (20) is exactly 1/2.5 of Capac's land.

Kaitzilla · Jul 16, 2019

Whisker said:
@Kaitzilla
On test #2, 2.5*20=50 <51 & 2.5*21=52.5>51, so that agrees with brokerer needind atleast 1/2.5 of the bigger AIs land area. Test #1 is more confusing, maybe there's another rule about absolute power levels where brokerer's size is ignored if warring parties are close enough in power . Was there any difference between test 1 & 2 on soldier couts or land targets?

Whisker said:
I'm not familiar with the language used in the code, but I may have found the reason:
int landRatio = ((getTotalLand(true) * 100) / std::max(20, GET_TEAM(eTeam).getTotalLand(true)));
If I'm right, the bolded part of the code returns either 20 or number of land tiles, whichever is bigger.

So in example#1 even when our land area is way smaller, value returned (20) is exactly 1/2.5 of Capac's land.

Thanks for figuring this out Whisker. :goodjob:

Yes, for brokering Cease Fire between 2 AI, the player gets 20 land tiles minimum when calculating if the AI is too big to listen.
If the AI has more than 2.5 times the land tiles of the player, the AI won't listen and will say "We'd Rather Win the Game".

The stronger of the 2AI (Power/Soldiers) is the one who has to be bribed to end the war, and the resulting peace is a Cease Fire, not a 10 turn Peace Treaty.
So war could break out again the following turn.

Anysense · Jul 21, 2019

Why would Peter open borders at furious? There were no wars and he had no land targets (other than myself).

Spoiler :

And now I can bribe him on Boudica and Darius! What is that about :confused:

Spoiler :

AcaMetis · Jul 21, 2019

You have vassals. Peter's attitude towards you is the average of his attitude towards you and all of your vassals. So, if he's Furious with you, but Friendly with the Zulu and Byzantine, I believe that would average out to Pleased.

Anysense · Jul 21, 2019

I forgot about that! That would explain a lot. I found another picture. My vassals are the five AI's at the bottom. Of course, quite a few things changed (3 more vassals and Justinian adopted a religion). Actually Peter does not have to be pleased towards player for bribing purposes, cautious is enough.

Spoiler :

Kaitzilla · Jul 22, 2019

Anysense said:
Why would Peter open borders at furious? There were no wars and he had no land targets (other than myself).

Spoiler :

View attachment 530285

At first I thought you were at war with another AI and Peter was also at war with that AI.
That way, even if you are the Worst Enemy of Peter, he will still Open Borders with you since you are both at war vs. the same AI.
For Example:

Spoiler :

Squinting my eyes, you don't appear to be at war? :hmm:

AcaMetis said:
You have vassals. Peter's attitude towards you is the average of his attitude towards you and all of your vassals. So, if he's Furious with you, but Friendly with the Zulu and Byzantine, I believe that would average out to Pleased.

Right!, Anysense has a vassal or vassals that is adjusting Peter's diplo attitude towards the player. :goodjob:

I've never seen anyone pin down exactly what is going on with diplomacy after gaining a vassal, so I will try it now.

1st, the diplomacy thresholds are as follows:
Furious: -10 diplo or lower
Annoyed: -9 diplo to -3 diplo
Cautious: -2 diplo to +2 diplo
Pleased: +3 diplo to +9 diplo
Friendly: +10 diplo or higher

Mods were created to allow hidden diplomacy modifiers to be viewed in game.
Apparently it is possible to view these in debugger mode, but I don't know how.

Eventually, Buffy 3.19.005 came out and it included all the hidden diplomacy modifiers.

Noble Zarkon said:
Following a lot of hard work we are delighted to announce the launch of the new Buffy 005 mod, this updates BUG and BULL to the latest stable versions and will be the last major update to BUFFY.

If you installed a beta or pre-release version of 005 please note there have been some minor changes to the final version so please delete the old Mod folder, download this version and re-install.

The change logs for the new version are linked below but the main enhancements are:-

All AI attitude modifiers are now shown including those previously hidden.

**Edit**
Looks like Silu figured it out in 2010.

A far more compact and better explanation than mine!

Silu said:
The real attitude is averaged by summing the attitudes towards you and your vassals together as integers (think 0 = Furious, 4 = Friendly), dividing by the amount and flooring.

If an AI is:
Friendly with human
Cautious with 1sthuman vassal
Pleased with 2nd human vassal
Furious with 3rd human vassal

This will combine into 4 + 2 + 3 + 0 = 9
Floor(9/4) = Floor(2.25) = 2
So the AI is Cautious with the Human master with 3 vassals team.

Spoiler My crappy attempt at an explanation long ago :

Anysense · Mar 6, 2020

I need to cap that stubborn bloke (look at the techs!). Reduced to one city with just a galley and a spear he still thinks that he is doing fine! What can be done about it? Will, perhaps, getting land target help? Or gifting cities to Peter or Mansa? BTW, this is Warlords and no aggressive AI. I noticed that it does not do what it does in BTS (easy cease fire) and turned it off.

Spoiler :

Anysense · Mar 7, 2020

I tried to worldbuild similar conditions and I could get any vassals, not even first one, let alone second! No amount of war success or power or anything can make them see reason and become my vassals. I don't know what mysterious factors are at the root of this problem but the whole thing is a horrible mess in Warlords, I've never seen anything like this in BTS.

WastinTime · Mar 7, 2020

So if you worldbuilder the sitch in BTS it works fine? making this problem Warlords-specific. Then I can't help I don't have Warlords.

Anysense · Mar 7, 2020

WastinTime said:
So if you worldbuilder the sitch in BTS it works fine? making this problem Warlords-specific. Then I can't help I don't have Warlords.

I replicated it in BTS. Not precisely, but the same techs, number of cities, population and units. Again I put 10 warriors in each of Mansa's cities and attacked with the same set of units. After loosing ~20 units and 1 city he capitulated, as one would expect in BTS. Yet in Warlords he would not capitulate even after loosing 3 cities and some 30 units. Perhaps, its not power that matters in Warlords but overall score or something else.

krikav · Mar 7, 2020

Can it be a land target issue somehow? O_o

Anysense · Mar 7, 2020

krikav said:
Can it be a land target issue somehow? O_o

Don't need land target in BTS and in Warlords it does not help (assuming there was such concept before BTS), so it appears to be irrelevant.

Jivilov · May 18, 2022

Zx Zero Zx said:
Woooooooooooooooooooooooow! So much information. I am going to have to bookmark this as I might want to know something from it some time. Probably the only thing I will ever want to know is when they can be bribed on someone. World war so fun!

That's it in a nutshell. As a Civ3 warmonger it's annoying as all getout to have AIs recently at war with each other become Pleased or Friendly with each other shortly afterwards. One supposes that in order to have them declare war their attitude toward each other must change; is there any way to affect that? Thanks.

Kaitzilla · Aug 20, 2022

Hey!!
Manco Capac's (Tachywaxon's) worksheet download is working again

Be sure to extract the .rar file onto your computer or it will be stuck in read-only mode

SGOTM 16 - Kakumeika

OK, WDWTSTJY calculator completed (v2). I tested for naval units (which are more complicated than earth units), it works. Sea-based techs are testable now. Same for airforces and world projects. Basically, simulations are workable for all techs in the tech tree. :) That calculator will...

forums.civfanatics.com

I'm determined to test it out now.
It is one of the ancient gems around these forums that deserves full testing and front page news.

"We Don't Want to Start Trading Away This Technology Just Yet" is a really annoying AI message to see when you want their juicy tech in a trade.

The worksheet should solve the mystery once and for all.

**Edit**
Ok, all 18 blue boxes need to be filled out correctly for the final result to work.
Some of them are drop down menus with multiple choice.
For the units section, Workboat is the null choice.

Hmm... :think:

"Estimate the strongest land unit in the game" only goes up to 5.
Is that intended?
Shouldn't it go up to 40 :strength:

in case a Modern Armor is rolling around somewhere?

Or does the calculation only matter up to 5 :strength:

?

I should have asked 10 years ago, but I forgot to get it done and now she is gone many years.

Whisker · Sep 2, 2022

Kaitzilla said:
Hey!!
Manco Capac's (Tachywaxon's) worksheet download is working again

Be sure to extract the .rar file onto your computer or it will be stuck in read-only mode

SGOTM 16 - Kakumeika

OK, WDWTSTJY calculator completed (v2). I tested for naval units (which are more complicated than earth units), it works. Sea-based techs are testable now. Same for airforces and world projects. Basically, simulations are workable for all techs in the tech tree. :) That calculator will...

forums.civfanatics.com

I'm determined to test it out now.
It is one of the ancient gems around these forums that deserves full testing and front page news.

"We Don't Want to Start Trading Away This Technology Just Yet" is a really annoying AI message to see when you want their juicy tech in a trade.

The worksheet should solve the mystery once and for all.

**Edit**
Ok, all 18 blue boxes need to be filled out correctly for the final result to work.
Some of them are drop down menus with multiple choice.
For the units section, Workboat is the null choice.

Hmm...
"Estimate the strongest land unit in the game" only goes up to 5.
Is that intended?
Shouldn't it go up to 40 in case a Modern Armor is rolling around somewhere?

Or does the calculation only matter up to 5?

I should have asked 10 years ago, but I forgot to get it done and now she is gone many years.

@Kaitzilla
Just throwing out guesses here, could the number be either technology era or unit level through upgrade tree?

Civ Illustrated #1 (Know Your Enemy)

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