GOTM 56 Final Spoiler
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Civ4 GOTM56 Final Spoiler
- Thread starter Cactus Pete
- Start date
Reading Requirements
Stop! If you are participating in GOTM 56, then you MUST NOT read this thread unless
Feedback on the game concept and map are welcome. Hope you enjoyed your game.
No submission for me this time, because I took the adventurer save...
I did as I predicted in my earlier spoiler, I conquered Mansa... but not until in about 1600AD. The arty was quite useful for this, but mostly getting chemistry ahead of everyone else is what made it possible. But the arty really disturbed my normal game, as I didn't get Oxford until about 1400AD, thinking I could just overpower anyone with one single monster unit.
After Mansa I then attacked Cyrus (had many units to eoither delete or use)because he was furthest from rifling... but he got cavalry which limited how far I can go (I remember that cavs come without rifles in vanilla for myself, but fogot it works like that for AI too.
). Anyhow, I removed Cyrus from first place by taking 3 cities, and then decided that my conquest goals would take too much real time and just switched to space mode. This was pretty safe as I was well ahead in tech by now. But a failry slow finish date for emperor level for me.
About 1700AD I got artillery, and then my arty was just another contemporary unit (with only 33xp, 4xDrill plus city raider 1).
Only other embarrasing detail was my thinking (after finding no coal and wanting railroads) that oil would enable railing my lands. It didn't. But with 2 oil I can trade for coal (after gifting Steam Power), so just a bit of uneccessary delay.
Anyhow, I'm pretty sure I would have lost the game if I played at Immortal unless I had played a much better game, so I had more fun by playing the (for me) unsubbmittable Adventurer. I got to see how the advanced unit would perform against a variety of units. My conclusion is that it can get you an early start, but on this map it I should not have counted for more than the nearest AI conquest being unusually easy.
Very interesting concept and I enjoyed the game a lot. Nice first game from Cactus Pete, and I look forward to his future maps and game concepts.
I did as I predicted in my earlier spoiler, I conquered Mansa... but not until in about 1600AD. The arty was quite useful for this, but mostly getting chemistry ahead of everyone else is what made it possible. But the arty really disturbed my normal game, as I didn't get Oxford until about 1400AD, thinking I could just overpower anyone with one single monster unit.
After Mansa I then attacked Cyrus (had many units to eoither delete or use)because he was furthest from rifling... but he got cavalry which limited how far I can go (I remember that cavs come without rifles in vanilla for myself, but fogot it works like that for AI too.
). Anyhow, I removed Cyrus from first place by taking 3 cities, and then decided that my conquest goals would take too much real time and just switched to space mode. This was pretty safe as I was well ahead in tech by now. But a failry slow finish date for emperor level for me. About 1700AD I got artillery, and then my arty was just another contemporary unit (with only 33xp, 4xDrill plus city raider 1).
Only other embarrasing detail was my thinking (after finding no coal and wanting railroads) that oil would enable railing my lands. It didn't. But with 2 oil I can trade for coal (after gifting Steam Power), so just a bit of uneccessary delay.
Anyhow, I'm pretty sure I would have lost the game if I played at Immortal unless I had played a much better game, so I had more fun by playing the (for me) unsubbmittable Adventurer. I got to see how the advanced unit would perform against a variety of units. My conclusion is that it can get you an early start, but on this map it I should not have counted for more than the nearest AI conquest being unusually easy.
Very interesting concept and I enjoyed the game a lot. Nice first game from Cactus Pete, and I look forward to his future maps and game concepts.
Mitchum
Deity
I typically have a tough time on Immortal, but I figured with an early artillery and a Great Scientist, I could swing a victory.
I found Hatty in 2640 BC with my exploring work boat. I captured her two cities and took her out in 2160 BC, just 12 turns later with a warrior rush oh yeah, I had a bit of help from my artillery as well!
I met Mansa Musa in 825 BC when my borders expanded in St. Petersburg, which was settled on the Iron, Marble and Fish island just north of our starting island.
With gold on Hattys island, I decided to try for the CS slingshot. I missed out on the Oracle by 2 turns. I then tried for the Great Lighthouse, which I missed by 5 turns. I quickly abandoned my thoughts of getting any early wonders and decided to take on Mansa Musa in 575 BC.
I had to stop the war via Peace Treaty three times to lick my wounds and build up for the next phase of the war. I heavily relied on the artillery, which made me do things I wouldnt normally do. I finally eliminated Mansa Musa in 1490 AD, 117 turns after my first declaration. Hows that for efficient fighting!!!
The long, drawn-out war with Mansa Musa made me realize that the Immortal AI are still a challenge for me, even with a super weapon, so I decided to stop my conquest. By this point, I was on par land wise with the other AI. I settled in for a Space victory, which I finally achieved in 1922 AD without too much trouble.
Thanks for the fun game. I normally wouldnt win on Immortal, so the starting bonuses for this game made up for my lack of skill.
I found Hatty in 2640 BC with my exploring work boat. I captured her two cities and took her out in 2160 BC, just 12 turns later with a warrior rush oh yeah, I had a bit of help from my artillery as well!
I met Mansa Musa in 825 BC when my borders expanded in St. Petersburg, which was settled on the Iron, Marble and Fish island just north of our starting island.
With gold on Hattys island, I decided to try for the CS slingshot. I missed out on the Oracle by 2 turns. I then tried for the Great Lighthouse, which I missed by 5 turns. I quickly abandoned my thoughts of getting any early wonders and decided to take on Mansa Musa in 575 BC.
I had to stop the war via Peace Treaty three times to lick my wounds and build up for the next phase of the war. I heavily relied on the artillery, which made me do things I wouldnt normally do. I finally eliminated Mansa Musa in 1490 AD, 117 turns after my first declaration. Hows that for efficient fighting!!!
The long, drawn-out war with Mansa Musa made me realize that the Immortal AI are still a challenge for me, even with a super weapon, so I decided to stop my conquest. By this point, I was on par land wise with the other AI. I settled in for a Space victory, which I finally achieved in 1922 AD without too much trouble.
Thanks for the fun game. I normally wouldnt win on Immortal, so the starting bonuses for this game made up for my lack of skill.
Truly pleased to get feedback that the game was fun, different, but challenging. That was the intent, of course.
Waiting for inevitable reports of disappointment and frustration. Constructive criticism will be appreciated.
Waiting for inevitable reports of disappointment and frustration. Constructive criticism will be appreciated.
BakeliteRules
Chieftain
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2007
- Messages
- 37
Not a criticism, just another game us mortals are not up to. Happy went easy, then no chance with mansa even with 12 swords and Art. No fun when no hope. Will keep trying with next, but no submits for last two games means depression
Thought I'd give a quick summary after spending a long time away from Civ and even longer from vanilla.
I took hatty with just the artillary - the capital fell 1st with then after healing the new capital fell.
Whilst doing that I'd scouted with the galley and convinced myself I was isolated. I ignored settling the North Island as I thought there was no reason. So I built loads of wonders (SH, 'mids + a lot more)and beelined Astro.
With Caravels I went east and west prooving the world to be round - missed finding Mansa's island. I got good tech trades with all the others on their islands and kept up in score with the top 2.
Pressed [Enter] a lot.
Once astro arrived I sailed over to mansa who I'd eventually found with a exporing caravel.
99.8% attack for my artilary against a skirmisher - the artillary died - I wept - my wonderlust meant I'd not supporting cast to carry on so I quit
I took hatty with just the artillary - the capital fell 1st with then after healing the new capital fell.
Whilst doing that I'd scouted with the galley and convinced myself I was isolated. I ignored settling the North Island as I thought there was no reason. So I built loads of wonders (SH, 'mids + a lot more)and beelined Astro.
With Caravels I went east and west prooving the world to be round - missed finding Mansa's island. I got good tech trades with all the others on their islands and kept up in score with the top 2.
Pressed [Enter] a lot.
Once astro arrived I sailed over to mansa who I'd eventually found with a exporing caravel.
99.8% attack for my artilary against a skirmisher - the artillary died - I wept - my wonderlust meant I'd not supporting cast to carry on so I quit
Their first strikes make skirmishers deceptively tough, and that's why Mansa was the second civ to deal with, but loosing at odds of 500 to 1 . . . I would have cried too. Sorry the game didn't work for you, DarkAmen.
Spaceship loss to Mansa - mid 20th century
This game was fun, but really hard. In hindsight, I think I would have played better without that dammed Artillery.
I decided not to conquer Hatty when I discovered the stone, I was hoping she would build me the 'Mids. But I did conquer her when someone else built the Mids.
Was teching towards Optics when St. Peters expanded and I met Mansa. Of course I decided to invade, but did it really badly. Conquered a few cities, but lost them once the Artillery had moved on. After several more attempts at war with Mansa, finally buckled and accepted peace. Oly option from there was to try a culture victory, but Mansa invaded me in the 19th century, taking Leg2 & Leg3.
At this point I had well and truly lost, but I kept going until I actually lost.
What impressed me, was Mansa going from second last, to second in score, and then winning!
This game was fun, but really hard. In hindsight, I think I would have played better without that dammed Artillery.
I decided not to conquer Hatty when I discovered the stone, I was hoping she would build me the 'Mids. But I did conquer her when someone else built the Mids.
Was teching towards Optics when St. Peters expanded and I met Mansa. Of course I decided to invade, but did it really badly. Conquered a few cities, but lost them once the Artillery had moved on. After several more attempts at war with Mansa, finally buckled and accepted peace. Oly option from there was to try a culture victory, but Mansa invaded me in the 19th century, taking Leg2 & Leg3.
At this point I had well and truly lost, but I kept going until I actually lost.
What impressed me, was Mansa going from second last, to second in score, and then winning!
adrianj
Deity
Contender - Spaceship Victory - 1938 AD.
My game sounds very similar to Mitchum's.
I took Hatty out early with the warriors wheeling the artillery around. I ended up transferring the capital to Thebes - I ended up settling lots of great people there.
Mansa was next target, and he took much longer than I would have hoped. By the end I was using Cossacks and Cannon.
I probably should have stopped there and turtled down, but instead I went after the weaklings of Victoria and Kublai Khan, who were having a rough time with Alex growing big. In hindsight this was a silly move - while I had 3 average cities on that continent for a little while, eventually Alex declared war on me. He wiped me off that continent, and I had to deviate to build up a decent navy of Destroyers and Battleships. Fortunately I didn't lose any cities on my main islands.
The space race was SOOOO close! I was feeling pretty safe, thinking "Yeah, it's pretty close" but then the turn I achieved victory I checked F8 - Cyrus had all the parts as well! Alexander was only lacking the Stasis Chamber.
My game sounds very similar to Mitchum's.
I took Hatty out early with the warriors wheeling the artillery around. I ended up transferring the capital to Thebes - I ended up settling lots of great people there.
Mansa was next target, and he took much longer than I would have hoped. By the end I was using Cossacks and Cannon.
I probably should have stopped there and turtled down, but instead I went after the weaklings of Victoria and Kublai Khan, who were having a rough time with Alex growing big. In hindsight this was a silly move - while I had 3 average cities on that continent for a little while, eventually Alex declared war on me. He wiped me off that continent, and I had to deviate to build up a decent navy of Destroyers and Battleships. Fortunately I didn't lose any cities on my main islands.
The space race was SOOOO close! I was feeling pretty safe, thinking "Yeah, it's pretty close" but then the turn I achieved victory I checked F8 - Cyrus had all the parts as well! Alexander was only lacking the Stasis Chamber.
Mitchum
Deity
Wow!! So you won by 1/2 a turn then. Had you known it was going to be that close, you probably would have panicked and lost the game by doing something silly like trying to attack Cyrus...
At least that is what would have happened to me. In fact, in one GOTM game, it was so close that I actually lost the space race, but thought I had won until I saw the results come out 3 weeks later... In my game, the AI were quite a bit behind on the space ship, not even having all of the techs necessary to finish it. They completed the casings before me but that's about it. Did you do a lot of tech trading near the end, giving the AI the techs they needed or were they just teching that fast? It looks like Alex was a monster so it was probably the latter.
adrianj
Deity
Yeah, I was super lucky in this game. My last two parts finished on the same turn, and I very nearly let one get ahead of the other - had to workshop over some of my capital's lovely towns.Wow!! So you won by 1/2 a turn then. Had you known it was going to be that close, you probably would have panicked and lost the game by doing something silly like trying to attack Cyrus...
In my game, the AI were quite a bit behind on the space ship, not even having all of the techs necessary to finish it. They completed the casings before me but that's about it. Did you do a lot of tech trading near the end, giving the AI the techs they needed or were they just teching that fast? It looks like Alex was a monster so it was probably the latter.
I did trade some reasonably advanced techs at the end to get me Plastics. At that point I thought I was safe. The AI just can't be trusted to stay backward! Near the very end nobody would trade techs to me anyway, giving the "We'd rather win" excuse.
Markus5
Code Monkey
Retired when when the writing on the wall was clear.
I invaded Egypt and took her two cities. I established one more city on that island and one on the northern island. I saw Mansa and attacked with lots of swords and the artillery. It was too late. I took three cities, and was heading for a fourth when he showed up with cats, maces and horse archers. Lots and lots of them. They swarmed over my lead stack and killed 'em all - including the artillery. The first three cities were poorly defended. Now it was clear that I couldn't keep pace and took peace. I was left with a lot of swords and dreamed of upgrading them. But, with no horses for cossacks and no coal for railroads, it looked bleak. I played on for a while, but eventually gave up.
I invaded Egypt and took her two cities. I established one more city on that island and one on the northern island. I saw Mansa and attacked with lots of swords and the artillery. It was too late. I took three cities, and was heading for a fourth when he showed up with cats, maces and horse archers. Lots and lots of them. They swarmed over my lead stack and killed 'em all - including the artillery. The first three cities were poorly defended. Now it was clear that I couldn't keep pace and took peace. I was left with a lot of swords and dreamed of upgrading them. But, with no horses for cossacks and no coal for railroads, it looked bleak. I played on for a while, but eventually gave up.
I like these custom/special scenarios also and thanks for hosting the GOTM.
Having said that, I was very disappointed that only 1 civ was reachable pre-caravels and pre-Astro invasion without an island empire border-popping. At this higher level where the AI spreads fast, I wanted to see how far I could stretch the artillery and only use our original city going for a conquest VC.
At least 3 civ should have been reachable via galleys, IMHO. Even if they were pretty far away and you had to spend many turns on the water getting there.
I did not submit my game. My 1-city 1-artillery plan was a flaming pile of poo after I learned the map layout.
cas
Having said that, I was very disappointed that only 1 civ was reachable pre-caravels and pre-Astro invasion without an island empire border-popping. At this higher level where the AI spreads fast, I wanted to see how far I could stretch the artillery and only use our original city going for a conquest VC.
At least 3 civ should have been reachable via galleys, IMHO. Even if they were pretty far away and you had to spend many turns on the water getting there.
I did not submit my game. My 1-city 1-artillery plan was a flaming pile of poo after I learned the map layout.
cas
damnrunner
Deity
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2005
- Messages
- 2,004
Epic fail. I thought I failed to get the mids in former Egypt by one turn and my hope to run a crazed specialist economy were dashed.
I then bungled the invasion of Mali. I found them way too late and then managed to lose my Art to large numbers of units.
I played a few more turns but won't finish the game or submit.
I then bungled the invasion of Mali. I found them way too late and then managed to lose my Art to large numbers of units.
I played a few more turns but won't finish the game or submit.
adrianj
Deity
I was teching towards Optics when a culture bridge opened up. Anyone who settled next to the fish, and not the marble, would reach Mansa pretty early. Early enough that the Artillery was still devastating (though I didn't have enough back up units to keep the cities I took)
shyuhe
Deity
I was building military to go take out Alex and KK but had to stop and go for a very late spaceship VC instead. If KK's capital had been right on the shoreline, I would definitely have gone straight military since I would have been able to destroy his SS. The one off coast design was... cruel. I really should have just gone SS earlier, as I wasted a good 20 turns at the end of my game I'm guessing shield and cow for me! As it was, I got caught half trying domination (crushing Alex) but barely escaped with a victory:
I lost my artillery fighting Mansa's horse archers, which kind of sucked. Then again, it was fighting by itself so I guess I deserve to get punished for bad tactics
I'm guessing shield and cow for me! As it was, I got caught half trying domination (crushing Alex) but barely escaped with a victory:I lost my artillery fighting Mansa's horse archers, which kind of sucked. Then again, it was fighting by itself so I guess I deserve to get punished for bad tactics
Of all the legends of the world, is any more famous than that of Queen Hatshepsut and the monster Beffudlov? A terrible beast, it was said, with a voice like thunder that shook the very ground! Deep in the forest of Thebes it lived, for nearly six centuries it lived, while generations of Egyptian archers sacrificed their lives to defend their home.
In despair did the people cry out to their queen. In all humility did Hatshepsut travel to the sacred circle of Stonehenge in the city of Memphis, there to pray to God for help. And God did send forth David, a simple archer, who entered into the forest and slew the monster.
Some say the monster served the barbarous Russians. Some say it was the Russians who brought the dread Beffudlov to Thebes in their own galleys. Others says these Russians were mere opportunists, for surely their axemen who landed outside Heliopolis did not coordinate with the monster. Who would dare do so? And when the word came than the Beffudlov was dead, these axemen did throw themselves at the walls of Heliopolis and were killed to a man. And then did the Russian galleys sail away, swearing to trouble the world no more!
In these modern times, people recognize this legend as the myth and allegory it is. Not even a child could believe that such a beast could ever have existed. But what if they should discover the tubes of preternatural metal alloys, buried to this day beneath the circle of Stonehenge?
Yes, a pitiful effort with the Adventurer start. I foolishly entered a habitual Open Border agreement with Hatty, then had to wait eight turns to break and start the war in 1520 BC. Once I did, it seemed the archers were being replaced faster than I could destroy them, because my artillery could not destroy the archers without taking its own share of damage. That first archer to counterattack (3.0 vs. 7.2) had a mere 8% chance of victory, but victory it achieved.
And I didn't have the heart to continue, so I retired in 725 BC with a grand 289 points.
If it matters any, I settled on the plains hill and used the GS to build an academy. St. Petersburg was founded next to the fish, on the island to the north. That gave me iron, but iron and two cities wouldn't be enough for me against the AI advantage of this level. Egypt was beyond my strength, not to mention all the other AI, whom I hadn't even found, yet.
<groan>
In despair did the people cry out to their queen. In all humility did Hatshepsut travel to the sacred circle of Stonehenge in the city of Memphis, there to pray to God for help. And God did send forth David, a simple archer, who entered into the forest and slew the monster.
Some say the monster served the barbarous Russians. Some say it was the Russians who brought the dread Beffudlov to Thebes in their own galleys. Others says these Russians were mere opportunists, for surely their axemen who landed outside Heliopolis did not coordinate with the monster. Who would dare do so? And when the word came than the Beffudlov was dead, these axemen did throw themselves at the walls of Heliopolis and were killed to a man. And then did the Russian galleys sail away, swearing to trouble the world no more!
In these modern times, people recognize this legend as the myth and allegory it is. Not even a child could believe that such a beast could ever have existed. But what if they should discover the tubes of preternatural metal alloys, buried to this day beneath the circle of Stonehenge?
Yes, a pitiful effort with the Adventurer start. I foolishly entered a habitual Open Border agreement with Hatty, then had to wait eight turns to break and start the war in 1520 BC. Once I did, it seemed the archers were being replaced faster than I could destroy them, because my artillery could not destroy the archers without taking its own share of damage. That first archer to counterattack (3.0 vs. 7.2) had a mere 8% chance of victory, but victory it achieved.
And I didn't have the heart to continue, so I retired in 725 BC with a grand 289 points.
If it matters any, I settled on the plains hill and used the GS to build an academy. St. Petersburg was founded next to the fish, on the island to the north. That gave me iron, but iron and two cities wouldn't be enough for me against the AI advantage of this level. Egypt was beyond my strength, not to mention all the other AI, whom I hadn't even found, yet.
<groan>
Noticed I had too much dominations lately, so decided to go for a conquest (tedious as it is in Vanilla). Finished Musa with Arty and xbows+cats (Arty stack took 4 cities, others - 3), then isolated Cyrus with maces and cats.
While finishing Musa decided to make things lively at the big continent and bribed Alex to declare on Vicky. And he thoroughly killed her, despite not that large tech advantage. Though he razed most cities which were repopped by sly Kublai.
First Cossacks arrived mid-Persian war and turned the table just fine, so when it was Kublai turn, he had no chances. The next turn after Kublai perished used the turn of no-man land where his culture had been, and attacked Alex on three directions. Artillery died at 91% taking Sparta (however, it had withdrawed couple of times before that). Not a chance for Alex either. As a result - rather decent for the starting conditions early 16th century conquest. The only episode I'm not happy with is the early Mali war with my artillery stuck healing and no cats to wage war without this unit.
Thanx for the game, Cactus Pete, good debut!
While finishing Musa decided to make things lively at the big continent and bribed Alex to declare on Vicky. And he thoroughly killed her, despite not that large tech advantage. Though he razed most cities which were repopped by sly Kublai.
First Cossacks arrived mid-Persian war and turned the table just fine, so when it was Kublai turn, he had no chances. The next turn after Kublai perished used the turn of no-man land where his culture had been, and attacked Alex on three directions. Artillery died at 91% taking Sparta (however, it had withdrawed couple of times before that). Not a chance for Alex either. As a result - rather decent for the starting conditions early 16th century conquest. The only episode I'm not happy with is the early Mali war with my artillery stuck healing and no cats to wage war without this unit.
Thanx for the game, Cactus Pete, good debut!
Like most everyone else I settled the good professor and researched towards getting the arty off of the island. Explored with the galley first, before loading up the big gun (scared of barbie galleys). Finding no passages except to the southeast, I loaded up and headed towards the unlucky Egyptians. I had tried a bit of a practice game, and the arty plowed through archers like a 
through
, but in the real deal it was regularly wounded faster than Hattie could dig up her mummified archers. I had to declare peace twice before finally making her tiny continent mine.
I was really frustrated when Mansa Musa discovered me with a caravel, and then settled next to the iron on the north island. I had eyed that island for centuries, but as I usually laugh at the stupid ai's for wasting resources settling every square inch of the map, so as I already had iron and wasn't building any wonders, left the site be. I loved the premise of this GOTM and found it very entertaining to dream and plan at the start.
I tried to conquer Mansa, but had to stop after 3 or 4 cities. One big gun couldn't make up the huge advantage in production that he had. I turned my eyes towards the next lowest hanging fruit, Vickie. She had redcoats, but I went ahead and blasted away with my macemen, cats, and arty. I captured her second cite three times, but couldn't hold it. The third time my artillery was the last unit left and I almost quit. I knew that conquest was over, it was too late for culture, and I couldn't race immortal ai's to space. So I bee-lined mass media, built the UN and lost vote after vote. I shared a religion with three other civs, but so did Alex, and he was three times bigger than I.
Alex and KK conquered Mansa and I was able to settle a few cities in their wake, until KK won a space victory in 1932.
My advice on improving the map would be to put more of an enticement than marble on the north island, so that the culture bridge to Mansa would form. Lowly players like me, don't compete for wonders on immortal difficulty (especially with an artillery to use). In retrospect I would build an early settler and galley, settle the north island to make a bridge to Mansa. Then with control of his large continent, the others would be manageable. Thanks Cactus Pete anyway, it was fun (mostly).
through, but in the real deal it was regularly wounded faster than Hattie could dig up her mummified archers. I had to declare peace twice before finally making her tiny continent mine. I was really frustrated when Mansa Musa discovered me with a caravel, and then settled next to the iron on the north island. I had eyed that island for centuries, but as I usually laugh at the stupid ai's for wasting resources settling every square inch of the map, so as I already had iron and wasn't building any wonders, left the site be. I loved the premise of this GOTM and found it very entertaining to dream and plan at the start.
I tried to conquer Mansa, but had to stop after 3 or 4 cities. One big gun couldn't make up the huge advantage in production that he had. I turned my eyes towards the next lowest hanging fruit, Vickie. She had redcoats, but I went ahead and blasted away with my macemen, cats, and arty. I captured her second cite three times, but couldn't hold it. The third time my artillery was the last unit left and I almost quit. I knew that conquest was over, it was too late for culture, and I couldn't race immortal ai's to space. So I bee-lined mass media, built the UN and lost vote after vote. I shared a religion with three other civs, but so did Alex, and he was three times bigger than I.
Alex and KK conquered Mansa and I was able to settle a few cities in their wake, until KK won a space victory in 1932.
My advice on improving the map would be to put more of an enticement than marble on the north island, so that the culture bridge to Mansa would form. Lowly players like me, don't compete for wonders on immortal difficulty (especially with an artillery to use). In retrospect I would build an early settler and galley, settle the north island to make a bridge to Mansa. Then with control of his large continent, the others would be manageable. Thanks Cactus Pete anyway, it was fun (mostly).
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