CivCombatCalculator (Excel)

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Originally posted by BomberEscort

But I am expecting a new release sometime (with the AA option) by the end of december.
BomberEscort, love the calculator. :goodjob:

Have you gotten anywhere on the AA combat mechanics? I've been doing some simulations and would be happy to share my results if it saves you some time in the editor. I haven't quite got the mechanics exactly figured out, but I think I'm close. The interesting part is that the AA defense seems to influence the probability of interception and the success of the AA in the ensuing combat that decides if the aircraft is destroyed. Give me a holler and I can give you the results in an Excel file . . .
 
I am still working on it, and any data you have would be appreciated. Go ahead and post it...

I am about 75% finished with the data collection... Then it is on to the formula discovery... ;)
 
Also,

I am currently teaching myself Visual Basic 6.0. I have completed the main form and now I just need to create the form for the output of all the calculations. Hopefully, I will create a stand-alone version of this calculator within the next month or two. If this happens I will no longer support the Excel calculator...
 
Sorry about being slow to get this up - work is interfering with my "research." :rolleyes:

I attached an Excel file with most of the trials I've done on attacks of bombers/stealth bombers on SAM/MSAM. I think I've got the SAM defense figured out, but the MSAM I haven't quite pinned down yet . . . I've found AA combat to not be quite as straightforward as the regular ground combat. :crazyeye:

I noticed as you did that only about 4-5 anti-air units attempt to intercept an attacking aircraft, but haven't figured the exact number, yet.

I also noticed that setting the anti-air value for MSAMs to 1,000 resulted in a 100% aircraft kill rate, so I reasoned that the anti-air value must influence the probability of intercepting an aircraft. Also, even though AA combat is "all or nothing" (aircraft are destroyed, never damaged), I noticed that altering the hitpoints of the air and AA units altered outcomes. So, I reasoned that air combat likely had two stages: the aircraft must first be "intercepted," then the units combat to determine if the aircraft gets destroyed.

I made the assumption that the units fight a "normal" C3C combat using the anti-air defense as the attack value and the air combat defense as the defense value and that if the air unit loses the combat, it is destroyed. Of course, the expected outcome of such combat can be easily calculated. When the conditional probability of an aircraft kill given an interception is known, the probability of interception can be easily estimated given the overall aircraft kill rate. Trials with a variety of different combinations of hit points and air combat defense values but the same AA defense all yielded similar estimates of the probability of interception for regular and stealth bombers. Thus, I concluded that the probability of interception was solely a function of the AA value.

When I varied the AA values for attacking bombers and stealth bombers from 1 to 1,000, I found that the estimated probability of interception followed a predictable but non-linear form relative to AA values (see charts). It looks like some kind of inverse function. When you plot the AA values on a log scale, the curves take the nice sigmoid shapes of a logistic regression. I kind of doubt the C3C programmers are as into logistic regressions as I am; so, even though I can reasonably predict the probability of interception, I don't think I've hit on the data generating function, yet. Also, the minimum probability of interception appears bounded at ~0.2. The curves for the bomber and stealth bomber appear to have the same origin and ending, but the stealth bomber appears to have a lower probability of interception across the range of AA values even though values are quite similar around AA values used in C3C (2-8).

The SAM AA mechanics appear simple. I think there is an invariant probability of interception for bombers (50%) and stealth bombers (5%). Aircraft hit points don't seem to affect outcomes, and I think the aircraft and the SAM "fight" a single round of combat, and the aircraft is destroyed if it loses.

I hope this agrees with what you've already found out or nudges you along in your quest for knowledge. I made some guesses on the MSAM mechanics to save time on simulations, so let me know if you think I'm on the wrong track. I'm also assuming that the fighters function in the same way as the corresponding bombers. Give me a holler if anything doesn't make sense; I spend too much time hobnobbing with statisticians to make much sense to most people. ;)

In addition to nailing down the MSAM function, I still have many unanswered questions . . .
Can AA attack>1x in the same turn?
What about MSAM's stacked with a SAM?
Does intercepting an aircraft cause abortion of the bombing run, even if the aircraft "wins" the combat?
Can an aircraft be attacked by >1 AA unit in the same attack?
Why does the stealth fighter have an air attack value?

If you haven't tackled these, I might be able to find time to chip away at a couple.


Looking forward to the stand alone calculator with ground and air combat.
:D
 
Thanks, the data is helpful... and it agrees with what I've been doing so I think all is well :goodjob:

I've completed several test (I will post all data when I'm finished)

BomberD is = AAA Defense
BomberD is 2x AAA Defense
BomberD is 4x AAA Defense
BomberD is 8x AAA Defense
BomberD is 0.5x AAA Defense
BomberD is 0.25x AAA Defense
BomberD is 0.125x AAA Defense
BomberD is 1/24x AAA Defense (just had to throw this in :D)
BomberD is zero, AAA Defense is non-zero

Tested these for 1-5 AAA in a stack...
A minimum of 300 trials for each group...

I'll try to answer your questions, based on my experience...

Can AA Attack >1x in the same turn? Yes. I set up a test with 1 AA in the tile with a AA Defense of 1,000 and the Air Unit defense to 2. It intercepted multiple times, so it appears one AAA gets a chance to attack each air unit.

What about MSAM's stacked with a SAM? I would guess that each one gets a chance, but this is too complicated (I.e.- I don't want to take the time to incorporate this possibility into my calculator, at least not now.)

Does intercepting an aircraft cause abortion of the bombing run, even if the aircraft "wins" the combat? Yes, I noted this somewhere in an earlier thread as a possible bug, along with rebase and attack on the same turn if you set an air unit rally point. Neither were fixed.

Can an aircraft be attacked by >1 AA unit in the same attack?
I have done multiple tests with 1, 2, and 3 AAA in a stack, and it appears that each one has a chance to hit the air unit. Each AAA only gets one attack per encounter though, and encounter being one bombing run.

Why does the stealth fighter have an air attack value? Ahh, the $64,000 question... I have given this alot of though... and my answer is I don't have a clue. It's not for interception, it's not needed in an Anti-Air calculation, Bombing Runs use something else... My best guess is it was to be incorporated with the stealth attack feature (that is broken), but neither are working properly.
 
Originally posted by BomberEscort
Tested these for 1-5 AAA in a stack...
A minimum of 300 trials for each group...
Jumpin' Jimminy Cricket - How do you manage to do so many trials? I guess this is what separates those who just want to understand AA enough to better thump their opponents (read: me) from those who have the drive and stamina to make the CombatCalculator. :D

Every few days, a new thread gets started in the Conquests forum by people befuddled by the AA mechanics. E.g., http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=74723
I feel their pain, because the AA combat values (unlike the ground values) give no intuitive understanding of outcomes. It's hard to decide what units to build or to plan strategy, and I think the first few modern age wars for most players are exercises in surprise and confusion. Would it be premature to start hyping the future release of the new and improved Combat Calculator with AA combat mechanics?

Originally posted by BomberEscort
What about MSAM's stacked with a SAM? I would guess that each one gets a chance, but this is too complicated (I.e.- I don't want to take the time to incorporate this possibility into my calculator, at least not now.)
I might fool with the mechanics of this if I get bored in the near future . . .

Originally posted by BomberEscort
Why does the stealth fighter have an air attack value? Ahh, the $64,000 question... I have given this alot of though... and my answer is I don't have a clue. It's not for interception, it's not needed in an Anti-Air calculation, Bombing Runs use something else... My best guess is it was to be incorporated with the stealth attack feature (that is broken), but neither are working properly.
This elusive problem carries the same allure as those long-standing scientific challenges like Fermat's Last Theorum. The person who solves it will be awarded the Nobel Prize for Civ Mechanics.
 
I will no longer be supporting the Civ III Combat Calculator (Excel version). Version 1.42 is as good as this will get. I am currently about 50% complete with the stand-alone calculator. My goal is to release a version that is on par with the excel version (I.e. - Everything the excel version has) by the end of the month. I will save AA combat (and army combat) for the next version after the initial one due to 'strange' results that need further testing...

As for the AA formula, I am hoping that Firaxis got lazy and used the same or similar formula to the retreat formula. See my Comprehensive Retreat Study

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64755

For Details...

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As of 1/18/2004 this version is no longer supported...

Visit the following thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1526027#post1526027

for its continuation in stand alone form
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