Civil War

I think that economic interests, and the real risk of major, long-term insurgency harming your national interests would be sufficient inducement to grant seceeding cities their independance. Also, if you do it with little prodding, then you might just have a 'friend for life' that you can turn to for help when you need it (and who can be a REALLY good buffer between you and any future enemies you might have ;)!)
Additionally, though, granting independance should improve your international reputation, and put you well on the way to getting a 'diplomatic victory'.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
-Yes comrade, this topic should absolutely be tied in with the barbarian/guerilla/mercenary/proxy war/freedom fighter/terrorism-matters that are beeing discussed in other threads here.

OT: I'd also like to be able to mess with the affairs of others to a greater extent.
Like 4 example: 2 nations are at a war that might hurt my economical interests in the region, so i want them to stop... i would like to be able to ask them to do so... with different levels of firmness, where the lower level is begging or offering deals and the higher levels are serious threats of intervention on either side, that would force the AI to consider the power-meter before answering.
Maybe you could get (bribe) a few other nations to join you in forcing the two to the table.
Then in the modern era (maybe with the UN or together with a forth party?) you could actually intervene, and maybe even occupy a certain space (or city?) inbetween the combatants without declaring war on any of them... just keeping them apart.
 
I think that the potential for rebellions is a good idea, but that it greatly depends on your form of government, interaction with the people, and composition of your people.

Composition:
If you have conquered another civ or a large portion of another civ, then foreign residents are more likely to rebel. This would be a way to encourage conquering a another civ, but then setting up a friendly government in it. You lose the threat, gain an ally, but dont have the concern of keeping conquered citizens happy. This would also represent unfortunate rationale for ethnic cleansing that has dogged civilization since its beginnings.

Interaction:
(1) Between Cities-Keeping cities in social contact is crucial. If a city(cities) is disconnected from your national trade network for an extended period of time, this could represent these cities losing touch w/ the rest of your civ and developing their own nationality.
(2) W/ your people-Maybe make civil disorder more of a threat than it currently is. Somehow tie civil disorder into the chance of cities breaking off and forming another civ. Ex: If a certian group of cities keeps going into disorder simply from poor management, they may break off.

Government:
A chiefdom or feudal monarchy is more likely to have rebellions that try to break off than a more central government. Each is merely an alliance, with the leader usually assigned by military might or charisma, w/ frequent internal squabbles. Now, yes the US had a Civil war. But, that was brought about by ideological differences. Those differences happened because a different social and economic conditions between the north and south. Perhaps that can be reflected in the game by what improvements a city has. If a city has mostly scientific improvements, then it's citizens may have different philosopies and values than a city w/ mostly industrious improvements. This philisophical difference could promote a civil war, like it did for the US. This would encourage players to diversify their cities' improvements, rather than have cities that exists for specific tasks.

I loved the capture of a capitol creates civil war ploy in Civ1. But I think that should again depend on above conditions of the Civ whose capitol you just captured. If someone has a very unified civ, then the capture of its capitol wont break it up, rather the opposite: create a nationalistic fever, making the civ not rest until it retakes its capitol or other variables. But if you capture a capitol of a civ that is falling victim (or close to it) to the symptoms above, then the chances of civil war are much greater. But that doesnt always mean that one side will like you. They may still want their capitol back, creating a 3-way war!
 
majk-iii said:
OT: I'd also like to be able to mess with the affairs of others to a greater extent.
Like 4 example: 2 nations are at a war that might hurt my economical interests in the region, so i want them to stop... i would like to be able to ask them to do so... with different levels of firmness, where the lower level is begging or offering deals and the higher levels are serious threats of intervention on either side, that would force the AI to consider the power-meter before answering.
Maybe you could get (bribe) a few other nations to join you in forcing the two to the table.
Then in the modern era (maybe with the UN or together with a forth party?) you could actually intervene, and maybe even occupy a certain space (or city?) inbetween the combatants without declaring war on any of them... just keeping them apart.

I LOVE THIS IDEA! I have been wishing for a way to end wars between others so I dont get dragged in for a long time.
 
slc193, I think you've nailed it. But I think it's pretty contraversial for a lot of people. Maybe yours is not as extreme as what I once said, but I once put forth a model where it's essentially impossible to grow forever. After growing 10%, you might shrink 5% due to civil war, then grow another 12%, then shrink another 4%... all the way as you reach for that 50% mark guaranteeing you a domination victory. It would be similar to football, where there's a natural push forward, then an effort to minimize the push back when the advantage shifts.

This dynamic would be the result of what you just talked about. After conquering a nation, sure you can benefit from it for a while, but it inevitably comes around in the form of a civil war or rebellion. You know that after conquering a nation, it's only a matter of time before the chickens come home to roost. Thus, there are multiple strategies to minimize the damage and maximize your benefits.

1) Conquer slowly. If you conquer 3 enemy cities, then hold still a few generations, and assimilate them, you're unlikely to encounter a rebellion.

2) Conquer quickly, and grant independence to a nation at the peak of your power. Don't wait until the tide starts to turn against you. For example, Rome could grant a small independent state to Greece... instead of waiting for things to get really out of hand and then watching the entire Eastern Wing become represented by the Byzantines.

3) Conquer really damn fast and hope that for the number of civil wars you encounter, you can just as quickly reunite them under your powerful military. (This strategy would probably only be viable at the Regent level at best.)

Critics of this "ebb and flow" model, though, hated the idea that they would HAVE to give up some power every now and then. I tried to make the case that this is no different from American football, where you kick to your opponent because you know you can't score a touchdown on this fourth down. Giving up yards now in order to gain yards later. But nobody seemed to care.
 
Yeah but you know, DH, that many of these people were the very same kinds of people who so hated the idea of restricting or eliminating 'Infinite City Sleaze'! They just don't want the game to change too much because I THINK they are afraid of losing their 'tried and true' paths to victory! Yet I think that if these victory paths remain identical in each iteration, then you are going to be missing out on attracting more people to the fan base!!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
Thanks, Aussie, I can always count on you to take a cutting edge approach. Not to mention your practical optimism that looks at a tough idea and says "hey, let's make this work".
 
I dont think that one should have to give up any power or cities, if they manage their citizens appropriatley. Here are some potential ways to reduce a conquered city's desire to rebel:

1. Ratio of foreign to domestic citizens per city: If you take a city, have a large garrison to disuade a resistance until the number or your citizens in the city is greater than the number or their citizens. This would reflect the ease of assimilating smaller cities but not the larger ones. It would also reflect a greater nationalistic awareness later in the game. If you take a city w/ a population of 25, it will be difficult to get more of your people in there than the natives. One could also use a "relocation" method to reduce the number of foreigns in that city. Ex.: Build a settler in one of your cities and the one you just took, swap their locations, build them back into the cities, therefore reducing the number of foreigners in the city you just took.

2. Units present per foreign national: Have a set number of units needed per foreigner to convince them not to revolt.

3. Cultural value: If you take a city from a civ that has a weak cultural value compared to yours, then why wouldnt that city (or a good portion of it) want to join yours?

4. How happy are the citizens? Luxury resources, luxury tax rate.

5. Form of government: Again, monarchies are much more likely to experience rebellion than Democracies. Why would they believe you had a divine right if they just came form being ruled by someone else who said they had a divine right? If they have a say in how they are ruled (democracy, federal republic, etc.), why would they want to go back to a monarchy or feudal state? This factor would be dependent on what your form government is compared to their previous form.

With factors such as these, it is entirely possible to conquer the world, although it will take a much longer time, require a huge army, and you really would need to pick your enemies and when to attack them VERY carefully.
 
Point taken. If you take cities that are "willing" to be conquered, then rebellion should be unlikely, even further down the line. "Willing" simply is a question of cultural inferiority, unhappiness with their current empire, poor quality of life, and lack of freedom. This is assuming that you can offer an improvement.

All the stuff I said before still counts, though :) For those who conquer the happy, the free, and the prosperous.
 
slc193 said:
5. Form of government: Again, monarchies are much more likely to experience rebellion than Democracies. Why would they believe you had a divine right if they just came form being ruled by someone else who said they had a divine right? If they have a say in how they are ruled (democracy, federal republic, etc.), why would they want to go back to a monarchy or feudal state? This factor would be dependent on what your form government is compared to their previous form.

Civil wars throughtout the history happens in almost every forms of government, including democratic republics.....
 
But Civil War, even in democratic republics, is usually the result of one group of people trying to earn their freedom in a society which is only "half free". But certainly it's common in dictatorships, where society has a large portion of people who are not powerful, so in essence, you already have two countries -- one for the rich and powerful, and one for the neglected.

I don't know how you'd model this. Certainly "we are different" isn't enough to justify civil war (although it would certainly be an improvement from what Civ 3 has now, or even what Civ 2 had).
 
In dictatorships civil wars is more dificult to make than liberalistic governments, because in dictatorships, the dictator conserve his power by military opression, and therefore he control the military itself. In a diferent way, a republic is much more easier to make a war or a revolution, because the power is divided....
 
Not to say which is easier, but it's a question of which is more likely. In a democratic country, more people are likely to form a party or to replace their leader through a vote. That how people generally settle their tensions in a democracy. Point to a civil war in a democracy and you're usually looking at a situation where voting rights were denied to a large portion of people, or there was voter fraud in the system, or where various political parties were outlawed.

Under a dictatorship, one of the few things you can do is try to break away and form your own state. Get support along racial, ethnic, language, or religious lines. Or convince a portion of the military to support your cause, or convince them that the man in power is a bad man. And so forth. Voting is not an option -- at least not a vote that you can believe in. That's why civil war is more likely in said circumstances.
 
But when in a democracy, the system has anomalies, then the country began to get instability (i think its the word....) and then someone have to get a "brake" in that problem, and the most easier way is to take the power troughtout force.
 
Any time you change your government type there should be a chance that a civil war erupts. If this happens your civ is split roughly 50/50 by population. You remain in command of the side that switches to the new government while the computer takes control of the other half which remains under the government type you are changing from.

The new 'civ' should be assigned a name and a leader and become an actual civ.

That's pretty much how great empires are formed anyway.

-E
 
Absolutely. But these anomalies need to be severe, like I said. Voter fraud, apartheid (racial oppression), outlawing political parties. In which case, these are not real democracies (yet).
 
I can give an example: Portugal (well, i wasn't supose to talk os bad things from my countries was i?????) Portugal, in 1910, change its government from monarchy to republic. Then the system wasn't a good one, because the parlament detained much power, and can demote the govern if it wanted. The governs were sucessfully demoted by the parlament and in some years, existed more than 45 governs!!! It was obvious that that crisis must be stoped. Then, in 1926, the Army take political control over the country for keeping the order......

I'm sorry for the boring history lesson, but this serve to show my point of view.....
 
I like the idea of having the possibility of civil war when changing governments. But I think that it will depend on what gov'ts you are changing from and to. I think that the odds of a civil war would be higher if one were to change from a democracy to a theocracy than if the transition were from a monarchy to a republic. Maybe a way to do this is to put the governments on a scale of some sort. have chiefdoms at one end and federal republics and social democracies at the other.

Ex:
1. cheifdom
2. Monarchy
3. republic (roman style)
3a. feudal monarchy
3b. Theocracy
4. democracy (ancient greek style)
4a. Absolute Monarchy
4b Communism
5. constitutional monarchy
5a. Facism
6. Federal Republic
6a. Social Democracy

If someone makes too big of a jump on that scale, then the risk of civil war goes up. But if one were to follow a steady progression along the scale (chiefdom to monarchy to feudal monarchy to absolute monarchy to constitutional monarchy to social democracy), then the odds of civil war between each step are much less. This may encourage players and the AI to follow a more steady progression of governmental structures, to reflect the evolution of social thought that actually happened in history. This would also discourage civilizations from going from a Federal Republic back to a Theocracy, just to wage a long war. This also would reflect the changes in freedoms and along the scale and the interaction of the people with their government along this scale. Communism and facism may be difficult to place on the scale. Maybe each government is given a percentage score and whatever the difference between those values is, that is your chance of a civil war.
 
Hey Comrade Pedro, sorry to overfit my definition. I think what you described is very valid, but obviously only starts to occur if there are serious anomalies in the system, right? So I assume that civil war is probably a product of unhappiness, corruption, or waste (to use Civilization 3's limited concepts to describe what might happen). I think that threshold is much higher in a democracy, however. Then again, you're right, there's nothing to stop a military from taking control of the situation even in a basically democratic country -- maybe they do it because they can.

Either way, I wouldn't insist on any form of government having a greater or lesser likelihood of civil war. I think there's too many counter examples. So we'll just leave this one to the developers, if they so choose.
 
Thats pretty much what I had in mind too, DH!! A dictatorial regime might be more resistant to civil war or government change as it can keep sufferage and libertarianism low (meaning that people can't effect change or express their dissent), and might maintain a strong military presence in its cities. However, if corruption, waste and unhappiness gets too high, then even a dictatorship will be in danger-with the results being much more violent than if they had occured in a democracy!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
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