Caesar of Bread
Trans Gordon Ramsay
Pray to Microsoft Jesus
Civilization 7 must NEVER be made!
- Thread starter King Phaedron
- Start date
Boris Gudenuf
Deity
Millenarian Excitement is nothing new.
When the year 1000 AD (CE) was coming up, great numbers of people in Europe were convinced that it signaled the Apocalypse, or the Second Coming, or some other cataclysmic event.
All it signaled was that their provincial, local time-keeping system needed to turn over a new century . . .
When the year 1000 AD (CE) was coming up, great numbers of people in Europe were convinced that it signaled the Apocalypse, or the Second Coming, or some other cataclysmic event.
All it signaled was that their provincial, local time-keeping system needed to turn over a new century . . .
Evie
Pronounced like Eevee
Most of the studies I've seen mentioned (focused on the French world) have found very little trace in any surviving written records of any such y1k fear - most of what little mentions exist comes up way after the fact, and generally describe what the author describe as, esentially, a fringe idea that they recall hearing some people mention in their youth. There's certainly no mention of upcoming apocalypse, averted apocalypses, nor condemation of heretical belief in apocalypse in any of the papal bulls from that time period.
Moreover, considering the kind of very long terms (multi decades) construction projects that were being initiated in the years leading up to y1K there is good reason to question how widespread the fears really were.You don't get started on a 20-years project to rebuild city walls that god will destroy next year anyway,
Finally one can question to what extent even knowledge of specific dates and years were widespread, even in the lower castes. They certainly appear to have had approximate notions of their age and when they were born.
Moreover, considering the kind of very long terms (multi decades) construction projects that were being initiated in the years leading up to y1K there is good reason to question how widespread the fears really were.You don't get started on a 20-years project to rebuild city walls that god will destroy next year anyway,
Finally one can question to what extent even knowledge of specific dates and years were widespread, even in the lower castes. They certainly appear to have had approximate notions of their age and when they were born.
Boris Gudenuf
Deity
The belief that it signaled some kind of Major Event was fairly widespread in Scandinavia, which was just converting (or more accurately, Being Converted) to Christianity at the time. That's according to H. G. Bengtsen, a Swedish historian active some decades ago. I don't know what kind of primary evidence he was referencing for that remark. He specifically characterized the belief as being among the newly-converted (first generation) Christians and among the general population rather than the leaders or rulers.
Boris Gudenuf
Deity
PS. According to Bengtsen, the 'rule of thumb' that developed among the rural population was that since there could be no deaths or births in Heaven, nothing was going to happen unless there was a period in which no animals or people were pregnant, and since that never happened, they stopped worrying.
Evie
Pronounced like Eevee
That's actually really interesting! The fact that it'S among first-generation Christians may lead to some interesting parallel to draw there with the presence of short-term eschatological beliefs among early christians, which as I recall were quite pronounced.
Gori the Grey
The Poster
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2009
- Messages
- 11,009
Dude, if your start was that bad, just re-roll.
Boris Gudenuf
Deity
What intrigued me (but not enough to follow up on it - I am By No Means a religious scholar of any kind) is the potential parallel between the End of Time Ragnarok of the pagan Scandinavians and the Apocalyptic Second Coming of the Christians which, to the average Glodwig and Sigfuss following the oxen and plow across the field, would look pretty much the same: you ain't a Valhalla Hero or a Saint, you're pretty much screwed either way, it would seem. I should think it would be very easy to conflate and confuse the two.
I do still remember a Comparative Religion professor at University pointing out that All religions that he knew of had 'borrowings' from other religions, or as he put it: "A pure religion is a mythical beast: they are all a mix of the old and new, borrowed and renewed."
Evie
Pronounced like Eevee
Another strike against a Y1K panic is this: for how many people was it even Y1K?
Anno Domini as a calendar predates Y1K, that much is true. It seem to have become widespread among scholars during the Carolingian period, so there is that too. But documents we have show it as one calendar among other around the time of what we now call Y1K - not the predominant dating system it became afterward. Regnal years, Roman/Byzantine years, and a variety of other systems were still in common usage, so the claim that it was unambiguously perceived as Y1k (or rather, M as they would have written it - both arabic numeral and SI prefixes being then entirely unknown or just barely discovered in Europe) does appear...questionable.
Certainly having a widespread panic over a year that was only meaningful in one numbering system among others seems...well, dubious.
Anno Domini as a calendar predates Y1K, that much is true. It seem to have become widespread among scholars during the Carolingian period, so there is that too. But documents we have show it as one calendar among other around the time of what we now call Y1K - not the predominant dating system it became afterward. Regnal years, Roman/Byzantine years, and a variety of other systems were still in common usage, so the claim that it was unambiguously perceived as Y1k (or rather, M as they would have written it - both arabic numeral and SI prefixes being then entirely unknown or just barely discovered in Europe) does appear...questionable.
Certainly having a widespread panic over a year that was only meaningful in one numbering system among others seems...well, dubious.
Boris Gudenuf
Deity
The earliest hints of people using positional notation and 'Arabic' numbers in Europe are Walcher of Malvern in England after 1091 and Leonardo Bonacci who wrote a book about using them: Liber Abaci, in 1221 - both instances well after the '1000' date.
On the other hand, the early conversion of Christians in Scandinavia was all done by monks, pilgrims and bishops sent north for the purpose, all of whom would have been using the 'Christian' dating system. That makes Bengtsen's claims at least possible. Although I suspect that the claims that any numerically-based 'panic' was widespread may reflect that it was 'wide spread' only among some of the new Christian converts and the amount of concern was much exaggerated by the recorders, who were most likely to be the same Christian clerics sent out to convert them in the first place.
On the other hand, the early conversion of Christians in Scandinavia was all done by monks, pilgrims and bishops sent north for the purpose, all of whom would have been using the 'Christian' dating system. That makes Bengtsen's claims at least possible. Although I suspect that the claims that any numerically-based 'panic' was widespread may reflect that it was 'wide spread' only among some of the new Christian converts and the amount of concern was much exaggerated by the recorders, who were most likely to be the same Christian clerics sent out to convert them in the first place.
Patine
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2011
- Messages
- 11,082
But, another question is, does a big, "M," invoke the same subliminal, superficial reaction as, "one-zero-zero-zero?"
Evie
Pronounced like Eevee
Yes, that would make sense - especially if the converters saw those older dating system as pagan, and therefore engaged in efforts to suppress them among the newly converted. .
sqwishy
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2014
- Messages
- 45
This is actually such a great idea. Have the second coming of Christ and he shows up and starts doing miracles. Has anybody done this yet?
reddishrecue
Some dude on civfans
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2009
- Messages
- 6,213
It should be just a video though and not mention the second because there's faiths that believe in the 'first coming' meaning that there wasn't a first coming at all. Some believe that the messiah has yet to arrive.
Patine
Deity
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2011
- Messages
- 11,082
And there's religious players who find the mockery of their echatological beliefs that could only result from such a portrayal to be offensive.
Boris Gudenuf
Deity
Religion is a Crocodile MInefield. Wherever you step, something is liable to jump up and bite your head off.
Anybody trying to sell something (like a video game) to millions of customers has to tread very carefully around religion, which is why you might have noticed that Religion in Civ VI never actually mentions any specific actual Religious doctrines, only various homogenized Beliefs that you can cut and fit into a religion of your own. The names of the religions are just that: names only with nothing attached to them that might offend anyone. For safety's sake, that is pretty much the only way to market Religion as a game mechanic without risking your collective corporate necks.
Anybody trying to sell something (like a video game) to millions of customers has to tread very carefully around religion, which is why you might have noticed that Religion in Civ VI never actually mentions any specific actual Religious doctrines, only various homogenized Beliefs that you can cut and fit into a religion of your own. The names of the religions are just that: names only with nothing attached to them that might offend anyone. For safety's sake, that is pretty much the only way to market Religion as a game mechanic without risking your collective corporate necks.
reddishrecue
Some dude on civfans
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2009
- Messages
- 6,213
Default named religions usually are Christian based and there's many Christian faiths in there like eastern orthodox, catholic or protestants. There's 3 major Jesuit religions while the Islamic only have one and they have different 'sects' as well if you want to call them that in real life. I guess that's why they made the custom religion so that you can think of your deity as infinite ways as you can but I still think more 'sects' should be added to the default collection of 'sects' that already exist because God created man in his image and when that happened, men also could create good things and in this case more default religious names. The pantheon and the follower beliefs will most likely have a lot of more newer neater beliefs but the default names can also use a boost and not have it so Jesuit based all the time because there were many major religions in the world.
Hellenism Salesman
King
*watches anxiously as this thread teeters on the slippery slope toward mod intervention*
Somebody613
Deity
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2019
- Messages
- 2,379
I saw this in "similar threads".
Was expecting stuff like "Civ 6 already sucks, we don't need yet another cash cow poop".
But this...
Seriously, WHY wasn't it removed by mods on day one?
It's "Off-Topic" at best, "incoherent crazy rambling" at middle, and "actual trolling" at honest.
Similar threads
