Civs starting with workers.

[Lord Yanaek]

Hi. I see that some civs start with a worker instead of the warrior most civs get (or the unique some civs receive). I'm wondering whether this was designed to help those civs or hinder them to compensate for other strengths

I can see why starting with a worker can be strong for Korea with their 2 from farms, but for India, it seems like it's a big "bullet in the foot" in the early game race.
Workers can't explore, and scouts take much longer to build than in normal games. This means you're likely to get no ruins and no first contact with CS by the time you get your first scout. During this time, your worker will most likely sit useless in the city because your jungle/marsh start means you need 4-5 techs to start improving luxes (as you need to be able to clear the jungle/marsh in addition to actually improve the ressource). Now, you might have one basic grassland to farm in the first ring, but this i'm not sure it's enough to compensate the total loss of early exploration caused by a worker start as working this 3 tile means you don't have any and you are more likely to have one 3 banana that doesn't need any improvement anyway.

At least, it's what i got in over half a dozen attempts using the Communitas map script. Maybe with some unusual maps like sandstorm it might be useful, but i don't think the point of this worker was to make India rule a few unusual maps.

 

[Thalassicus]

It's designed to provide a unique difference, not really help or hurt. Workers cost a lot, and starting with one lets us develop our economy sooner. That advantage is balanced by the downside of reduced exploration and ancient ruin potential.

It sounds like the main problem is when you start with no workable tiles near the capital. I'll see if I can add a check to the communitas map to ensure start locations have several clear tiles around the capital.

 

[Ahriman]

It sounds like the main problem is when you start with no workable tiles near the capital. I'll see if I can add a check to the communitas map to ensure start locations have several clear tiles around the capital.

This would be great. If you get a coastal or jungle start - really anything except a river where you can start farming - then the starting worker can have nothing to do.

 

[Thalassicus]

I looked at the unmodded start-balancing code and realized it's an overcomplicated 700-line mess. I'm thinking of replacing the whole thing. There's a lot of odd things in there... like 2 food grassland are valued three times as much as 11 plains.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

I have to say that India should either start with a worker and warrior or only with a warrior. Right now the worker is a major handicap unless you have barbarians turned off. You'll need a couple of techs to make it useful, you can't really scout, and there's a good chance that you'll just be hiding in your capital until you have a military unit, and you lose out on ruins.

 

[ExpiredReign]

I'm beginning to come around to the idea that civs that get starting workers should also get a military unit.
It isn't unheard of for civs to have more than one unit, those that get naval units also get a warrior or a scout.

 

[Gokudo01]

I'm beginning to come around to the idea that civs that get starting workers should also get a military unit.
It isn't unheard of for civs to have more than one unit, those that get naval units also get a warrior or a scout.

I think a worker and a warrior is a bit too much, and really unfair.
Naval units can't get ruins and can't improve tiles.

My suggestion would be to give them free chop down ( forest ) and, if it's not enough, free plantation.

 

[mitsho]

Don't underestimate the effect of an early farm. Just getting the next population points a little bit earlier can make a difference. But of course there's the problem if the worker can't improve anything right away.

But a worker and a warrior would be too much. You can explore very few tiles btw. until the warrior or scout is built. It's highly improbable to run into barbs in the first 5 turns or so after all.

(And btw. naval units not being able to get ruins is a major oversight for civ5 from the start btw. ...)

 

[ExpiredReign]

It is important to note I didn't say change the worker for a warrior. I too see the great potential for having a worker from the start. In fact when I play as a civ that doesn't get one, I usually build one early or quickly go for a policy that gives me one.

My point about a military unit is simply for the ruins. ALL other civs can explore ruins from turn 0. Those with naval units can more easily clear barbarian camps than a warrior can, provided they are close enough to the coast. The military unit can simply wander around exploring. Even a +1 from a NW can help in the early game if you can't yet improve a luxury.

So the question is: "Are worker improvements better than knowing your surroundings and any possible ruins rewards?"

 

[Ahriman]

It is important to note I didn't say change the worker for a warrior.

Starting with a worker and scout would be crazy-powerful - even more powerful than worker and warrior. Shoshone are the only civ where arguably they should have a scout.

The problem with the worker start is that it is so situational. It can sometimes be incredibly strong: if you have a wheat tile near start, or even just a grassland to farm, and 1 or more forests next to the capital, then farming the open tile while you research mining and then chopping stuff out can be a supercharged start.
But other times there are no tiles at all that you can work. The worst is if you have jungle nearby.
Simplest solution is probably to make sure that there are at least a couple of clear grassland/plains tiles next to the start spot.

 

[Spheniscine]

It sounds like the main problem is when you start with no workable tiles near the capital. I'll see if I can add a check to the communitas map to ensure start locations have several clear tiles around the capital.

Wouldn't an easier solution (at least for the time being) be to change the start bias for those civs so that they start near plains or grassland? (India in particular seems to have it bad with a start bias of jungle...)

 

[Zaldron]

I'm beginning to come around to the idea that civs that get starting workers should also get a military unit.
It isn't unheard of for civs to have more than one unit, those that get naval units also get a warrior or a scout.

I've never felt that starting only with a worker to be a strong disadvantage. You get basically 18 free turns of production, so even if your worker can't do anything for the first 8 turns you're still way ahead by the time it can start making improvements. You can immediately start with a scout or warrior so you still get exploring within the first few turns of the game.

It would be extremely overpowered to have both a military unit and a worker.

 

[Spheniscine]

Wouldn't an easier solution (at least for the time being) be to change the start bias for those civs so that they start near plains or grassland? (India in particular seems to have it bad with a start bias of jungle...)

Amendment: Testing indicates that plains more reliably produces workable starts than grassland, at least on the Communitas map. Grassland tends to have a lot of jungle and pasture/camp-based resources around, while plains get wheat.

 

[Ahriman]

It feels odd to give India a plains favor though. Might it not be simpler to have the script manually clear a few tiles than to change their start location biases?