Combating the Illians versus AI

[TrilobyteOverlords]

I am playing on extramodmod continued on Monarch and I am really struggling versus Illians, who seem to dominate every game they're in. If they border me they can hit me with 7 strength units (frost speakers) while I still have warriors and they have a tendency to cause blizzards on my tiles that make them unproductive. They also have the world spell that stops me from producing units for 10 turns, so combining that with the 7 strength units going up against my warriors feels like an auto game over.

If they don't border me, they tend to eat up other civilizations and end up twice the military power of the other AI by the time I know where they are. Even if I manage to conquer their territory, the cities are unproductive unless I use sun mana and then I'm still stuck with tundra, so I'm putting all my hammers into conquering these relatively non-productive cities. Ice mana is super strong as well. Meanwhile non-Illian AI is getting lots of productive territory and expanding military units, so bannor or sheaim will declare war on me in my weakened state even if I manage to beat the Illians.

What am I missing here? How do I beat the Illians?

Currently I'm playing with svaltafar, but I play a variety of civilizations.

 

[TrilobyteOverlords]

Okay, trying different things here, is there any reason to build warriors as svaltafar? "Sinister" Scouts have the same strength only with the potential to capture animals, right? I feel like they die more often but this must be psychological.

Erebus map is a lot easier than Erebus World or Tectonics because on Erebus I tend to have more privacy and lots of forests and rivers, at which I can rapidly advance in tech and get super productive cities. If on Erebus World I get attacked in the first 50-100 turns (sometimes by multiple AI) or if I start next to tundra, lots of ocean tiles, desert, etc I have a hard time and usually lose quickly.

Strongest starts when people attack me early I've had are rushing Leaves, then getting the beefy satyrs while AI conveniently positions themselves on forests. Theoretically I can use a great priest to get the leaves civic and satyr uprade, except my economy usually crashes around then because I've had to focus on building satyrs while AI sends 10 warrior stacks at me to raid my improvements that I have to slowly pick off. This strategy is much less effective if I don't have many forest tiles.

 

[Tielby]

I haven't had the problems you've had with the Illians, but that may be because you're playing at a higher difficulty level.
In any case, I think you're doing a lot of things right. Erebus is specifically designed with choke points, so that does tend to give you more leeway. Svaltafar scouts are as strong as warriors, except when attacking or defending cities, so I would focus on scouts first, yes. Also, I've heard rushing Leaves can be a good military strategy, so I don't think that's your mistake.

The thing that confuses me about your story is that you seem to still be relying on warriors (or scouts) when the AI is already up to the level of Speakers. They shouldn't be THAT far ahead in the tech tree, so I wonder what's slowing you down. What are you researching after Animal Handling (satyrs)?

One thing I can say for certain, snow tiles are not a long-term hindrance. Scorch (sun mana) turns them to tundra (as you said), then Vitalize (nature) to plains. Yes, Vitalize is a tier 3 spell, but Druids are not far down the tech tree, and are an especially good investment if you are Svaltafar and Leaves.

I do hate it when Stasis hits, though. Right there with you on that.

 

[TrilobyteOverlords]

Though sometimes stasis can be quite convenient if I need to change my religion or civic, heh.

Usually I try to rush god king for elder councils, found a religion, get cottages, then get markets. I think this may be part of my problem - svaltafar starting with agriculture are already a good chunk of the way towards markets (and calendar helps with money too), which lets me found more cities that provide research even if they don't have elder councils. I had a very successful playthrough with them where I rushed markets, then grabbed hunting, then joined hippus against Sheaim and gradually won a domination while working on a tower victory. No illians in that game though and having a powerful ally for the whole playthrough (friendly hippus who will join any war as long as I pay them) rather than multiple people DOW-ing me makes a big difference, so maybe it isn't a good example.

I am also reaching the conclusion Faeryl kind of sucks (unless I'm missing something again). She has the arcane trait, but none of the spheres you start with are that useful until you get tier 3 spells, except maybe poisoned blades, which is quite nice but you don't need a lot of mages to cast it. She has raiders, but the recon units that formed the bulk of my military don't actually raid, so I basically get to move through enemy territory quicker... Nice until I'm up against someone with the aggressive trait and need to compete with a doom stack. The other two leaders seem like they would be better, though with Rivanna you would need to find a way to get some summons. Edit: I take it back - I prefer Faeryl to Rivanna. Extra movement + getting high mobility mages is better than organized + summoner, though something like aggressive and spiritual or financial would be more useful.

 

[Dangerous Hat]

I'm playing MNAI so things may be a little different, but agree the Illians are one of the tougher civs to be next to. I find you need to build lots of units when you see them go into war prep mode so you have enough defenders to ride out stasis. Then when that's over target the Priests of Winter - you may have to suicide a lot of warriors or whatever you have on their stack to get rid of them, but you have to do this to get rid of slow and the ice elementals. Then (in MNAI anyway) it gets a lot easier and you can take their cities in the normal way.

Also I find it better not to use scorch, after which you're stuck with tundra - in your territory the snow tiles will revert to grassland or whatever it was originally reasonably soon. The same thing will happen in their cities that you conquer once you have a majority in culture, but obviously it can take a very long time to get that.

 

[FireBlaze]

Admittedly I'm not that great at the Sylv yet, and am playing on Diety Magister, but I'd think that you'd mostly have to raze their horsehocky that borders you and create a dmz of sorts, and then use a combination of diplomacy and hidden nat units to continually drain them while yall are at peace and you direct their army to fight another rival. Like you said, they're a pain to fight head on at a couple different points in the game and their cities/areas are often worthless drains without more effort than it's worth at most points before you've already effectively won.

edit: also agree that both leaders are kinda subpar and have underwhelming trait combos, I think Volanna is probably the best (agg/scavenger) but she might be version dependent.

 

[TrilobyteOverlords]

Recently I was experimenting in vanilla civ with taking cities, getting a vassal, giving their cities back, then "enlightening" them with military technology at which point they become a good ally. This potentially allows me to keep collecting powerful vassals to snowball, depending on the leader personalities and how quickly they agree to vassal. I never actually read a description of vassal mechanics when warlords came out and spent the last 15 years assuming they would rebel when they had the equivalent of their original territory, but they actually only do this if I demand a massive tribute (like all their resources at once) and will quickly forgive me for declaring war if I return enough cities.

This seems like it would be an excellent solution with the Illians, allowing them to get the most out of the tiles and build up a fighting force, even if I cannot "enlighten" them directly without the default technology trading enabled. In extramodmod there is even the "puppet state" option (not sure where this is originally from), which I rarely use since I mainly keep vassals to harvest them for mana, but seems like it would be good with the Illians (and maybe Lanun for ocean tiles?) and could be set up relatively early to help with the war effort.

This of course does not help early game, before you can vassal.

I'm playing MNAI so things may be a little different, but agree the Illians are one of the tougher civs to be next to. I find you need to build lots of units when you see them go into war prep mode so you have enough defenders to ride out stasis. Then when that's over target the Priests of Winter - you may have to suicide a lot of warriors or whatever you have on their stack to get rid of them, but you have to do this to get rid of slow and the ice elementals. Then (in MNAI anyway) it gets a lot easier and you can take their cities in the normal way.

Also I find it better not to use scorch, after which you're stuck with tundra - in your territory the snow tiles will revert to grassland or whatever it was originally reasonably soon. The same thing will happen in their cities that you conquer once you have a majority in culture, but obviously it can take a very long time to get that.

That is actually very good information. It seems like as svaltafar assassins are priority, as they get the bonus and that would allow one to take out the frost speakers more easily, but prior to that predicting the DOW and mass scouts/warriors like you describe might be the only option.

[Edit: I have to say, I'm coming around to Faeryl more. A major factor is the lack of siege units, as Svaltafar cannot build catapults, so rapidly getting fireballs is extremely helpful, even if you're stuck with weak fireballs.

It isn't uncommon for cities to have a multiplier up to 100% or even more, so it's very difficult to raze or take cities without fireballs. Fireballs give illusionists a reason to exist, basically, but then you also get poisoned blades, treetop defense for withdrawal, charm person (potentially stop assassins from getting your mages), blur to avoid first strikes (which the AI barely takes ; let me feel like my blurs are accomplishing something AI), etc, which provides enough of a benefit to justify producing them. And inspiration gives them something to do while they're gaining XP (probably my favorite tier one spell).

Then with commando you get a rapid movement fireball force that can keep up with 2 movement units that are also using enemy roads. I don't pull off as much raiding units as I'd like as I'm prioritizing economy and recon unit, but the movement on its own is quite useful.]