Commerce tree = useless?

[I_qua_I]

I currently love how limited gold in the early game makes a ton of once useless features and strategies actually relevant. Unfortunately, at the mid to late game gold seems too plentiful to the point of invalidating a lot of could-be gameplay options. For me, one of these options has been the commerce tree. I've never taken it since BNW came out and never felt close to needing it. The only policy I've ever found myself actually wanting is the happiness bonus but wouldn't ever dream of actually completing the whole tree to get it (which is the only way to get it).

Anyway, I was curious what other people thought of this tree. Is it the new piety or am I not appreciating what it has to offer?

 

[ptoss1]

You can never have enough gold.

 

[Ulthwithian]

Doubling the already-doubled output of MoV for Venice is... rather fun, I must admit.

As for myself, I find myself using Commerce a lot.

 

[VainoValkea]

Useless? In theory, no, it's not useless. Cheaper purchases are great, more gold is useful, more happiness, why the heck not! Although the increased spawn rate for GMs is actually a bad thing if you want to avoid spawning them.

In practice though, I find commerce is simply not worth taking. Early in the Medieval era I'm more focused on Patronage or Aesthetics, later on I'm more concerned about getting good picks from Rationalism than increasing my GPT.

 

[Teholb]

I honestly don't understand how anyone can have too much gold. Unless it's gotten to the point that the game has become too easy, in which case, bump up the difficulty.

I'm not trying to attack you by any means, it's just . . . you could bribe a bunch of CS and have massive boni. You could rush-buy a bunch of buildings to further snowball your economy. You could bribe civs to vote your way, or to do your bidding in the military arena.


Gold really is too useful to have "too much." But I'm sure there are players who find ways to get things done with a dearth of gold. It just makes things so much easier to react quickly to.

 

[Callonia]

Commerce tree doesn't even give you extra trade routes so I rage at it.

Only 7 frustrates me.
Wait almost forgot about +1 gold for each trade post, that's the biggest reason one would open commerce for.

 

[Aaron90495]

Aside from going down Commerce as Venice, there's not a huge reason to go Commerce. Unless you plan on finishing it, it just doesn't hold up to Patronage or Aesthetics (aside from the policy that makes purchases 25% cheaper). It feels like it needs a slight buff; perhaps change the Extra Gold from Land TR's policy to Gives an Extra TR?

 

[Teholb]

Aside from going down Commerce as Venice, there's not a huge reason to go Commerce. It feels like it needs a slight buff; perhaps change the Extra Gold from Land TR's policy to Gives an Extra TR?

That policy is good for passifying the AI. If you're playing as Morroco, and you pick that policy, you're looking at a base +5 gold per trade route. Your civ becomes insanely attractive for trade routes, civs send you their traffic and you begin to accumulate massive Science because you get so many extra routes. Bonus points if you're a heavily religious civ. Viral religious spread via trade is awesome to watch.

This is the first Emp game I've ever won, and I think Morroco made it possible. I'm not a good player, frankly. The science/gold bonus later in the game is insignificant, but you can't forget about cumulative advantages. It grows over time until YOU are the runaway civ.

 

[LostKnight]

I love commerce, not because of the slight boost to gold, but because of the +2 per luxury. Combined with Patronage to give you access to most luxury in the world(or just play Portugal), this one policy can easily give you 30 happiness by itself.

 

[VainoValkea]

Oh yes, commerce + patronage is a strong combination if you're going for CS allies and want all the happiness - for, for example, Dictatorship of the Proletariat.

Heck, I thought I'd have problems picking my first SP branch with the moving of Piety to the ancient era but now I'm mostly trying to decide which ones to pick after finishing Tradition.

 

[mabalogna]

Commerce has and always will be my favourite tree - ever since vanilla

The purpose of Commerce is to give your gold more purchase power by reducing the strain on your GPT, as well as generate more with tiles (Trade Post/Customs House/Opener); this essnetially makes GPT a secondary source of production. Gold is more versitile than hammers, as you can: spend it to get happiness, spend it to get culture, spend it to get faith, spend it to get food, spend it to get units, spend it to maintain big armies, etc etc. Production can only ever use 25% of its output on science, or gold - and everything else production can do relies heavily on how much GPT you're able to generate.

A few points in defense of commerce:

1) Reduced Maintenance - boosted from Vanilla & G+K from 33% -> 50%, this makes it so you spend 0.5 gpt on a road, and 1gpt for railroad - This bonus helps make city connections more profitable by reducing the strain on your gold, as well as makes the 25% production bonus from railroads be more cost efficient. It's not the biggest bonus for GPT sure, but the added benefit is that its possible to build redundant road systems at a fraction of the cost in order to help maneuver your troops through rough terrain.

2) +1gpt Trade posts - Anyone who goes around puppeting the world shouldn't complain about this boost. Commerce really is a warmongers best friend when you can generate an extra 50% (after economics) off of trade posts. Wide puppet empires make tons of money with this finisher - and the extra GPT means more buildings/units can be supported - as well as more gold for the power of rush buy.

3) 25% reduced rush buy cost (15% from Big Ben Commerce exclusive) - the most powerful skill in my opinion. This policy is what turns your gold from what you use to maintain everything, to production; getting Big Ben is icing on the top. Granted, if you've got an empire thats producing <100-150gpt than this wont seem like a strong Policy - but for those who are abusing trade routes, trade posts, and customs houses and your GPT is well over 150 then sit back and start buying everything. Most of my own games I'm producing around 300-500gpt - this translates into a 1 Factory every 2-3 turns; or 1 combat unit ever 3-5 turns ON TOP of the production i'm already getting from hammers. This benefit is further boosted with Autocracy by reducing rush buy on units by an additional 33 % - thats a 58% (73% w/ BB) on buying units. If you have a city that happens to have Brandenburg Gate, then you can rush out so many Elite units at a really marginal cost with gold - FASTER- then you can probably build with hammers.

4) Synergy - Commerce works very well with OTHER SP and i think this is the most important part of Commerce.
-Patronage - Commerce benefit from one another with lots of GPT to buyout CS, and lots of Happiness from all the luxuries. (I believe the bonus would be 8 Happiness from CS luxuries with both happiness boosts from Commerce and Patronage)
-Honor - Commerce - Autocracy fields massive elite armies at the fraction of the cost (Reduced Unit maintenance, Reduced upgrade cost, Reduced Buyout)
-Commerce - Rationalism - Freedom get great use out of trade posts/GP Tiles and Great Person generation, the Aesthetics opener also helps

 

[argblarg3]

I could not disagree more with the idea that commerce is a weak policy tree. Mabalogna made a nice summary of the benefits. Unlocking Big Ben, the 25% reduction of purchasing costs for everything, the +34 happiness for the final social policy, and the huge gold boost that the commerce finisher provides are invaluably, at least to my play style. I think unless you know 100% that you will be winning a cultural victory, then the commerce tree is arguable the best tree in the game. At least, that is what my experiences on emperor have shown to me, maybe on higher difficulties it changes.

 

[Matthew.]

I love commerce, not because of the slight boost to gold, but because of the +2 per luxury. Combined with Patronage to give you access to most luxury in the world(or just play Portugal), this one policy can easily give you 30 happiness by itself.

This. It is rough to invest so many policies to get it, but I love the extra +2 per luxury. IMO better when you run puppet empires, since you likely won't have many trading posts in your core cities.

Also, Big Ben along with the policy is great for rush-buying.

I'd say your average tall/peaceful/small empire won't have much use for it, but wider domination oriented games will benefit quite a bit.

 

[Syailendra]

if you are planning to bomb the world flat with GWBs and atomic bomb, then commerce is your best friend. Rusbuying is the key to success in aerial warfare.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

I'd say your average tall/peaceful/small empire won't have much use for it, but wider domination oriented games will benefit quite a bit.

Oh, it's also pretty useful for smaller empires. I mostly go tall and Commerce is one of my favorite trees. I'd probably pick it over Patronage if I had to choose. The Opener and Wagon Trains increase your gold regardless of the number of cities you have, and the 25% gold bonus in the capital has very good synergy with Tradition. And while +2 per luxury may be more useful for larger empires, you can never have too much happiness for Golden Ages and culture from Fine Arts. The ability to buy 40% cheaper with Big Ben is also very useful to get your national wonders early.

 

[Matthew.]

Indeed. Only including that because I know a lot (most?) of the people here prefer the taller/peaceful style of play, and a lot of the commerce bonuses get better in wider games. Understandable why the tree may not seem that great if you only have a handful or roads, luxuries, and no need to rush-buy units to fight wars on multiple fronts, etc.

 

[I_qua_I]

Wow, nice responses guys! I guess I'l have to give it a shot. I play on prince level usually so things rarely get do-or-die. I'll experiment with the tree in my upcoming games.

 

[Justice1337]

I played commerce a lot before, and I still play it a lot in BNW. It's much improved.

It really comes down to whether a player has ever run a Gold-based economy. Before I really had a go at the economic civ's, I was loathe to spend money when I got up past 500 because I figured I would save it for maintenance. When I did spend it, it was toward CS's. But then on those games where my income just kept going, I felt bad about "wasting" 900 Gold or so on a University, because after all, Gold is for Maintenance and CS's right?

Then, I think the first economic game I tried was shortly after G&K release with the Dutch - Huge Map, Epic Speed. With lots of cities and lots of ground to cover, rush buying in remote locations was the only effective way to get useful military. Sending troops from the capital to other continents would take 20-30 turns and techs would go obsolete. Having had that experience, I'm better able to gauge how much Gold I can expect and how much rush buying is feasible. If it is a lot, Commerce is great, almost overpowered. With Big Ben, it's like a 50% boost to your production base.

After all, a Gold-based economy is quite viable, as the existence of Venice will attest.

The main improvement to the tree is the locking of the Big Ben to those who don't pick it. The AI rarely picks Commerce, and so now the Big Ben is pretty realistic on every difficulty. The thing I miss most though is the 3 production to Coastal cities. That policy was great before production caravans were in the game, and it's still very good.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Oh, it's also pretty useful for smaller empires. I mostly go tall and Commerce is one of my favorite trees. I'd probably pick it over Patronage if I had to choose. The Opener and Wagon Trains increase your gold regardless of the number of cities you have, and the 25% gold bonus in the capital has very good synergy with Tradition. And while +2 per luxury may be more useful for larger empires, you can never have too much happiness for Golden Ages and culture from Fine Arts. The ability to buy 40% cheaper with Big Ben is also very useful to get your national wonders early.

This highlights how situational the benefits of Commerce-or any SP tree-are. Even on a very low difficulty, I found gold extremely scarce due to being small, land-locked & far away from most of my neighbours (I had to principally rely on internal trade for my gold). Needless to say, Commerce has been *extremely* helpful for boosting my gold!

Aussie.

 

[Bad Wolf]

If you have too much gold, you're not spending it fast enough. CiV gives you no end of things to spend money on, from units to buildings to city states to bribes to AI players. I don't understand "too much money" - does not compute!

Also, +2 happiness per luxury resource...