Congress 6 Highlight: Espionage

[Stalker0]

[Vote] - (6-36) Espionage Overhaul

As the texts of the espionage proposals are quite long, it would be difficult to read them if they were all in one thread. Please use the links below to access them: Proposal (6-36) Espionage System Overhaul by @azum4roll Proposal (6-36a) KISS Espionage System by @Stalker0 Proposal (6-36b)...

forums.civfanatics.com

While there are a lot of exciting proposals in our current congress, the espionage proposal is likely the most impactful and important proposal on our docket. This vote is setting the direction of development for a major component of the game (the spy system). Your vote will impact what we focus on spy wise, and how that system will move forward for years to come. So yeah, its an IMPORTANT VOTE!

My goal in this thread is to help you make an informed decision among a lot of systems. I invite the fellow authors of the various espionage proposals to this thread to ensure I am not speaking incorrectly on any of the subjects. @azum4roll, @Recursive, @pineappledan, @rkkn . As for myself, I am the author of the KISS espionage system, and while I will try to stay as impartial as possible in this overview, I will openly state my authorship so you can look for any biases.


Vote Objective: Choose a direction rather than a balance.

This might be odd coming from me, as normally I expect a fair amount of rigor and analysis in complex proposals before I'm willing to vote on them. However, the simple truth is.....the espionage topic is very complex, it involves a lot of moving pieces, and it has its fingers in a lot of areas of the system. While all of the authors have spent a lot of time and effort giving you the best first version they can, expecting a brand new system that is going to be very well balanced out of the gate is not a practical ask. And so....I would expect any of the systems chosen to be rough at first. They will need tweaking and polishing, likely over a few iterations.

And so with this vote, I would not focus on the stringent mechanical balance of any of these proposals, or even the minor subsystem details. Instead, focus on the style and direction of that proposal. Each of these core proposals is fairly different in their own ways....which direction do you like?...that is the focus. If you really like the KISS model but thinking tech steals are too quick....vote KISS and then we can fix the speed in future work. You like the Intelligence system but think the yield steals need to be a bit higher...again vote Intelligence, we can tweak the yields later. etc etc.


Azum Model (OG Proposal, C, and D)

Spoiler :

(6-CP) Espionage System Overhaul

Let's get this out of the way. Background I guess everyone should know that we want to change the Espionage System in some way. In the Espionage Direction polls, opinions were diverse and it was mostly inconclusive what people wanted. So I'm here trying to come up with an idea that vaguely...

forums.civfanatics.com

At its core, the Azum model wants to tweak the current "mission based" spy system rather than revolutionize it completely. It focuses on maintaining a lot of options and "levers" for spies, as well as letting spies inflict damage on other civs. As such it is the most complex of the spy systems proposed here. The C and D proposals ultimately are adjustments to a few specific missions in the core model. I would argue that the best way to vote here is to vote for all 3 or none of them. None of the versions are so different from each other they couldn't be tweaked in the later congress, again if the goal is to vote a direction, all 3 of these are moving in the same direction.

Coups: Removed

CS Rigs:

• The big note here is that rigs now get stronger and stronger the more times the spy succeeds. So a spy that is left in a CS for a long time unchallenged will start generating very large amounts of influence. One of the key elements of this system is sending spies to "block" CS rigs periodically to ensure enemy CS aren't getting locked down by very powerful rigs.
• When multiple spies in the same CS are all attempting to rig, the winner chosen by a lottery among a number of "votes" that each spy receives. These votes are based on the level of the spy, and the amount of time the spy spends in the CS. This proposal reduces the extra votes for the level of the spy, and so the race is "closer" between a lvl 1 and a lvl 3 spy both trying to rig than it would be in the other spy offerings.

Travel/Setup Time: Completely removed. As soon as you send a spy to a city, its they're starting to build up its points for future missions.

Security: Similar to how it works today, but every security reduces your point gains by a %, so its a major factor in how strong your spies are. A note here: there is a permanent penalty for every mission in a city, so a city hit with lots of missions will get harder and harder to break into.

Intrigue: One big change, only diplomats now provide intrigues.

Counterspies: Counterspies in this proposal are very powerful. They are capable of hugely reducing enemy point collection, killing spies, or even increasing the attack power of a city.

Diplomats: Other than what they do today, diplomats provide a lot more intelligence about an enemy civ (including their policy and tech trees), a stronger tourism bonus, and even more gold from trade routes. They are also the vehicle by which intrigues are obtained. As such, diplomats are quite a bit stronger than they are in current VP.

XP: all spy units get a set amount of XP each turn they work, with some bonuses for completing a mission or finding an intrigue that creates variation in how fast they level.

Passive Benefits: When a spy goes into a city it starts collecting points, which is heavily impacted by the spy's level, security, counterspies in the city, and cultural influence. As the points accrue, you get more vision of the city (unlike in the current system this vision is more gradual, you don't just see everything in the city once the spy sets up), and you start stealing a portion of that city's science. The % you steal gets higher the the longer the spy stays in the city.

Active Missions: The crux of this system are the active missions. This spends some of your points in order to do various things (this does not reduce the passive benefits you have already gotten, but it does make getting to higher levels of passive benefits more difficult in the future). The missions themselves are similar in type and style to the missions we have in VP today (see proposal for the details). However, one major difference is.... in current VP you must select a mission and then spend X amounts of turns to complete it. So you must commit to a missiion well ahead of time. In this system, while you do have to commit to a city well ahead of time, you do get to decide how you want to spend your points after you have accrued them, which is more flexible.

The Spy Cooldown: There are several cooldowns noted in this system, and its important to understand how they work.

• Mission Lockdown: When you perform a mission in a city, that mission becomes locked for all players for 15 turns. This means no spy can spend points on that mission in that city for the next 15 turns. The cooldown ends AFTER the player who instituted the mission finishes their turn. So for example, if player A and B have a spy in a city, and player A performs a mission. 15 turns later the mission is unlocked after player A goes, and so player B could start up that mission on their turn if they want to. If player B refuses and then player A does that mission again on their next turn, the mission is once again locked down.
• Multi-Mission Lockdown: 3 missions (noted in red in the proposal), not only lock out themselves, but they also lock out all red missions. This prevents a city from getting "beat up" all the time.
• Spy Cooldown: When a spy finishes a mission, that spy cannot do another mission (regardless of type) for 15 turns. However, it can continue to accurate points to pay for future missions.

What the Detractors are Saying:

• The system is still too complicated and many of the missions just aren't good enough.
• The cooldowns are onerous and will lead to frustration for players getting "locked out" of missions they want to do.
• The system penalizes Tall players because its too easy to "hit" the big capitals and screw them out of yields.

Kiss Model (Proposal A)

Spoiler :

(6-CP) KISS Espionage System

Counterproposal to: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/6-43-espionage-system-overhaul.685902 Rationale: The initial Espionage proposal is focused on making adjustments to the current system, but keeping the concept similar. This is a very different take, this version returns spying more...

forums.civfanatics.com

This model returns spying to a "vanilla-esque" approach. The main focus of spying is as a tech steal vehicle. This system is notably simpler than the Azum model, but also has a lot less options and features. The direction here is that you want spying to remain a strong yield gainer but simple and straightforward.

Coups: Unchanged. An important note is that KISS is the only new system that is keeping Coups.
CS Rigs: Unchanged.

Travel/Setup Time: Now standardized, there is no variance here. When you send your spy you will always know when its ready to spy.

Security:

• Notably, KISS' security uses a civilization wide model. All cities in a civ have the same security score, and any security booster in a city impacts the entire civ. This means all security boosters are always working. But it does mean that a very wide empire can have security scores higher than a Tall one.
• Security only impacts the threshold needed to get a tech steal, not the progress along the way. This means that security changes are only important when you get close to a steal threshold, and then at that point those changes become very important.

Intrigue: No changes

Counterspies: There are no missions for counterspies, you drop them in your civ (in any city) to increase security and kill spies that succeed at tech steals. So they are notably weaker than the Azum model. However, they also gain XP at 3x the rate of a normal spy, making this a good training ground operation for them.

Diplomats: Unchanged in function. They also receive 3x the Xp of a normal spy, so again Diplomats are good places to train spies.

XP: A set amount each turn they work, so gauging when a spy will level is very straightforward in KISS, with no variation.

Passive Benefits: A stationed spy gets the normal "city view" it does today, and starts collecting points to trigger a tech steal. Whenever a spy gets to the needed threshold, it triggers a tech steal automatically. It should be noted that in this system, spies are agonistic to what city they are put in, as all spies in a civ work together to get to the threshold. This means that you choose what city you place your spy into based on the city vision you want, and not based on what yields you want to grab. KISS is the most "city agnostic" system of the 3.

Active Benefits: Other than selecting what tech you want to steal, no active components to spying.

What are the Detractors Saying:

• System has too few options and is boring.
• Security might get too high for a very wide civ.
• Counterspying may be too weak.

Intelligence Model (Proposal B)

Spoiler :

(6-CP) The "Intelligence" Spy System

Preamble: The current state of the espionage system gives nothing that players want, because players are already getting too much stuff for free. The only thing that is left for spies to do is contribute to yield inflation by stealing X and giving it to you, or rigging elections in city-states...

forums.civfanatics.com

This model focuses spying on the acquisition of intrigue, enemy info, and vision. The yield acquisition is kept to a bare minimum. This model is for people that want spying to be more about the info gained not the yields acquired.

Coups: Removed

CS Rigs: Unchanged

Travel/Setup Time: Unchanged

Security: The system is very simple with minimal granularity. There are 5 levels of security that reduce how fast spies gain XP, and reduces the passive yields they acquire. Ultimately security is the weakest of the 3 systems, going with the notion that as spy yield steals are weak, the security counters are also weak.

Intrigue: Unchanged

Counterspies: Removed.

Diplomats: Mostly unchanged, but does provide more tourism and some extra features when they hit level 3. They gain XP faster than spies in cities with high security.

XP: A set amount each turn of work, with this reduce directly by the Security level of the city they work on. Unlike the other systems, spies reset to 0 xp when they switch cities, the level of the spy directly activates what abilities and info it has access to.

Passive Benefits: The spy provides the city vision you get now, as well as specific info about the civ itself (such as world wonders, score, number of techs, etc). This info increases with spy level. At level 3, the spy also does some passive copying (not stealing) of yields. The amounts are intentionally low and not meant to be a major yield source.

Active Benefit: None. This is meant to be a "fire and forget" system.

Core Info -> Spy Info: One important note of this system is that it takes some of the core intelligence you get "for free" in current VP and moves it into the espionage system. For example, you will need to place a spy in an enemy civ's city to know their exact score. You must be active with your spies to get the full picture of enemy civ capabilities rather than having that automatically. Further, to broker war and peace deals requires a level 2 diplomat with that civ rather than being an automatic option.

What the Detractors are Saying:

• System doesn't do enough to warrant spies (should just remove spying at this point).
• Losing the info a player gets for free right now is a "feels bad".
• Security is so weak its not worth investing in.

I hope this summary was helpful to you, and you are welcome to use this thread for follow-up questions. We hope all of our voters give this particular topic serious thought and consideration. We eagerly await for your decision!

 

[FinMc]

Your synthesis is really helpful, thank you for this and also your voting log. Your contributions to this community are excellent and appreciated.

 

[Recursive]

Thank you for the summary @Stalker0, I thought it was informative and neutral.

The only things I'd note are that if any of the azum model proposals passes, I will include an Advanced Option to disable Spy Missions, and also, the azum model doesn't remove travel time, only establishment time.

As the designer of proposal C (a tweaked version of azum's model which notably has no cooldown for the steal tech mission), my reasons for proposing it are as follows. These are my opinions and you are free to take them as you wish:

• Currently it seems to me that half the community likes the concept of powerful spies with a lot of options, and the other half wants much less micromanagement.
  
  I feel that azum's model of passive benefits (constant Science siphon, the reworked intrigue system, and the reworked rigging system) is the most interesting and useful of the three. Tech stealing (KISS) is often useless when you're ahead of the pack, forcing you to either use diplomats or go for counterspies when it comes to major civs, which removes a lot of strategic decision-making from the game. Science siphons still give you at least some benefit even when you're ahead. The KISS model does retain coups and rigging, so spies as a whole are by no means useless in KISS, although I'm personally not as compelled by having this be the main attraction because I find the combination of options and additional intelligence the azum model offers for major civ spying (even when in the lead) to be more fun, and I like variety.
  
  On the other hand, the Intelligence model gates a lot of information that I feel shouldn't be hidden, while being nearly useless to the AI as they're unable to remember the information after leaving the city, and have much weaker incentives to stay there than in the azum model.
  
  Crucially, the passive benefits in staying in a city for a while are useful even if you don't actively do spy missions, which adds an additional layer of strategic choice and allows the system to still have benefits to players who aren't super involved in the spy game, but still want to do the occasional mission. You can keep your spies safe if you want to and still get benefits from it, instead of being forced to risk them on a mission that might kill them. That just feels better.
  
  I also really like the value added to diplomats and the pile of new intelligence granted by them in the azum model - it feels like taking the best element of the Intelligence model, while still retaining the current 'vision' of spies. Some of it, I could train the AI to make good use of, but even if I don't, Diplomats provide useful benefits in the form of consistent XP, vote trading (which I suspect will be further empowered, as the "irrevocable vote commitments" proposal seems likely to pass), and intelligence to humans. Unlike the Intelligence model, Diplomats have more incentive to stay in a city longer, making it easier to train the AI to use this feature. The removal of coups feels like the right direction to me as losing a spy to City-State RNG feels bad, but there's still a nice benefit for keeping your spy there longer.
  
  With the option to disable Spy Missions I will add, I think the combination of the azum model and the option is the best hope we have of making the largest number of people in the community happy - both those who like powerful spies and those who like simpler spies - and the best base from which to make future changes.
  
  
  
• Being able to pick your mission at execution time (and as much as cooldowns will allow, picking an opportune time to strike) rather than having to wait for many turns, gaining no benefit from doing so in the interim and potentially failing, immediately removes some of the most frustrating issues with the current system. This also eliminates the issue with sending a spy to sap a city, only for it to be already conquered in the time it takes for your spy to complete the mission.
  
  
• Civs have limited tools to catch up or hinder a runaway civ other than war. Having spies be powerful makes them a useful counterplay element and an active part of strategic decision-making. You could say they're the "blue shell" of VP. Yes, they can be annoying, but they help give the world a fighting chance. At the same time, this system is still valuable for civs that are winning, offering several options. My counterproposal specifically also buffs Security for players of lower difficulties, making it less punishing for them.
  
  
• azum's model makes all elements of the spy system have value and feel fun - spies, counterspies, diplomats, and City-States (although admittedly City-State spies are less interesting, they provide a powerful tool for DV). Security also feels like a meaningful investment, as the sooner you invest in it, the more substantial the benefits are. I personally feel excited by this proposal as, while it will certainly have its rough spots in the beginning, the various components all feel worthwhile in fundamental design.
  
  
• My counterproposal specifically fixes two issues I see as rather glaring with the azum model. First, the cooldown on stealing tech, which is a mission that doesn't hurt the city owner; having no cooldown on this mission helps make sure that spies will usually have something to use their points for other than their passive bonuses, even if there are a lot of them in the same city. Second, it adjusts the sabotage city defenses mission, which I see as too powerful even with a counterspy mission to block them (see my proposal for the details).

While no model is perfect, and I have my biases (I like powerful and versatile spies), those are my reasons for supporting this model, and I think it goes the furthest towards making the largest number of people happy, which is a goal to strive for!

I also have to agree that this is a really important vote, so please give careful consideration to the available options, and remember that you can cast your vote for multiple options at once!

 

[Tekamthi]

how come the espionage stuff isn't a supermajority vote (or is it)?

 

[Stalker0]

Tech stealing (KISS) is often useless when you're ahead of the pack, forcing you to either use diplomats or go for counterspies, which removes a lot of strategic decision-making from the game. Science siphons still give you at least some benefit even when you're ahead

My counter: KISS still has rigs AND coups (which none of the other systems have). So if you are ahead and don't need tech steals, there is PLENTY of CS work to be done with your spies.

 

[Stalker0]

how come the espionage stuff isn't a supermajority vote (or is it)?

This was discussed at one point. The main reason it wasn't is because there is a clear discontent of the current spy system with the community (the problem is not that there is a problem, its what to do about it).

If we required a supermajority on something this complex and intricate, nothing would ever get passed.

 

[Recursive]

how come the espionage stuff isn't a supermajority vote (or is it)?

All the proposals, while long and detailed, are ultimately designed as improvements to an existing system (albeit a major one) which many in the community are currently dissatisfied with. None of them add an entirely new subsystem to the game.

Supermajority votes are generally for adding new content which has a huge impact on balance or gameplay (e.g., a new policy tree, a new era, a new civilization) or changes to default assumptions the mod is built around.

Adding something like corporations from scratch would require a supermajority vote, but rebalancing all the corporations would still be only a majority vote.

Ultimately it's a judgement call for the Magi to make, but I think it's fair as-is.

My counter: KISS still has rigs AND coups (which none of the other systems have). So if you are ahead and don't need tech steals, there is PLENTY of CS work to be done with your spies.

That's fair, I've edited my post to make note of that.

 

[azum4roll]

Nono, travel time still exists in its current form (can be tweaked later). Establishment time is removed.

The passive Science from NP is a copy, not a steal. All three models happen to have no hurting components when a spy passively stays in a city.

 

[Solic]

Spying for me already feels like a very integrated system with it being embedded in policies, buildings, affecting different victory conditions and being affected by different victory conditions in things like tourism % benefits, visibility, diplomats allowing vote trading. I am happy it is getting reworked rather than abolished. I think we need to keep enough targeted offensive options open that are not declaring war and espionage is one of them.

KISS is a step back in the complexity that I enjoy and come to expect from systems in this game. I especially enjoy advanced actions like being able to sabotage production of a wonder and making a city more vulnerable during conquest. It adds new dimensions to existing already complex systems and gives me more tactical options in order to achieve a milestone I am working toward. The dopamine rushes hit when I finally conquer that city or am able to build that wonder and spies are just another thing in the toolbox that allow me to get there. Particularly they are fun to me, because the timing when these actions are done is very important as opposed to a generic gain x more yields option.

Similarly, the rework that keeps a lot of the current system, I really don't understand why coups had to go there, since advanced actions against civilizations are kept fleshed out (and I really regret not making a counterproposal in time for it). Incurring some penalties (taking a risk, and diplomatic repercussions) by couping in order to gain a big advantage to start out a war or right before an important vote are things that I really enjoy. More options that allow me to use tactical timing to win an objective. However, there is always next congress. I am putting my eggs in this basket, because I agree with the premise of this thread that we should choose a direction instead of the exact system as proposed.

The intelligence system I like least of all. It's a cool idea and if civ was designed from the ground up with that in mind, I'd be all for it, but in the current situation, there is not enough intelligence to gather for me to want to have a specific subsystem devoted to primarily that.