Conquest 03 Pre-Game Discussion

[Rustwork]

research: min. writing, max. philosophy, with an early shot at maps.

building multiple curraghs for exploration (seafaring increases their movement to 3).

trade writing and philosophy (or even better just gold) for all available techs; retaining my (hopefully) maps monopoly. this will increase offensive capabilities.

then, build fleets of dromon filled with archers and spears, or swordsmen. another reason to have maps will be harbors, possibly needed to bring in distant resources like iron.

dromons will be very effective EARLY vs. spears. the AI usually defends most cities with two spears (easily red-lined with 5-7 dromos); maybe one more spearman at demi-god is my guess (use the editor if you want); investigate cities first. i will utilize dromons to help capture coastal cities and contain nearby civs from expanding by sinking their galleys. demanding techs for peace. one draw back is this could lead to a golden age while still in despotism. try bombarding AI galleys, but don't destroy them; the AI will pull back their galleys without triggering our GA.

if possible i will try to sneak in the great lighthouse.

another concern is that, like the dutch game, we are isolated while the other civs have more immediate contacts, or that we have a rival on our land mass. crossing sea and ocean tiles will slow our attack slighty, hopefully the rng is kind to us all. .

basically, i see dromons as a temendous advantage. better at bombarding than catapults (others have posted about the importance of artillery at higher levels) they also move faster AND they transport units. i believe it will be important to slow tech sharing to exploit this advantage for as long as possible (delay the emergence of pikemen). all this without neglecting control of our own landmass! no prob .

 

[Roland Ehnström]

I think map making is important if we have limited land available and to get Great Library (edit: I mean Great Lighthouse. )

Yeah, well, I never ever build wonders in the Ancient Times. To me it feels like it's not worth the effort and risk to spend a huge amount of shields early in the game for a possible advantage, when the chances are high (especially on Demigod) that the AI will complete the wonder before I do. Perhaps I am wrong about this, it would nice to hear a word on wonders from one of the top players.

-- Roland

 

[Capt Buttkick]

I just played another test game, this time on demigod with the Byz. No seafaring AIs, and the AI didn't invent Maps until the same turn that I got Philosophy. The sling worked neatly, establishing a Republic in 1125 BC with 7 cities. The start was a good one, but not fantastic (2 wheats on plains and a river start).

I think I'll have to F10 and see who our opponents are before I decide what do. However: Writing on max is definitely feasible with a river start so I may try that and the republic sling shot provided there are no other seafarers. That said, no seafarers were in the last game, so I think we may have them all this time Depends on what my nomads come up with of course

 

[Denniz]

Yeah, well, I never ever build wonders in the Ancient Times. To me it feels like it's not worth the effort and risk to spend a huge amount of shields early in the game for a possible advantage, when the chances are high (especially on Demigod) that the AI will complete the wonder before I do. Perhaps I am wrong about this, it would nice to hear a word on wonders from one of the top players.

-- Roland

Your point is well taken. I pretty much stopped building them as well. I do think having it with the it's pre-astronomy sea tile benefits might be worth the risk. We would have to have a good start and control what techs we trade away, though.

My lack of experience on emperor and above difficulty would probably prevent me from even trying. I don't have much confidence I could beat the AI going for a republic slingshot. So I will have to settle for Lit or something that gets me closer to monarchy unless were on a really small island.

I have play about 5 quick starts with Byz on arch/deity. If there are civs that get alphabet then I don't get any good early tech trades. On one occasion someone beat me to writing. (Goodie hud, probably.)

 

[Rustwork]

in my emperor games, i often take code of laws as my free tech. of the techs available it is valuable, and if traded right i can get alot for it. i try not to give any civs with contacts to each other both philosophy and code of laws; i try to only trade one or the other.

considering that map making is a tech priority for the AI i probably won't grab it for free, contrary to what i said above, the AI will have it soon after anyway and i will trade for it then.

if properly pre-built with a palace i think the great lighthouse is possible to build. is the advantage worth the resources (i think this depends on how close other civs are or if we have any luxuries and resources that must be connected through sea squares)? maybe attempting the great library, so we can gather gold and let the AI do our research, extending the time before pikemen, or build the army and get busy conquering? i think i'll build my army, unless other land lies across many ocean and sea tiles.

as for early moves: worker goes NW, the settler will definately remain on the coast, so i'd rather see more of the coastline than what is further inland. a couple curraghs will start exploring, a warrior or two next, and with no pottery a settler soon after.

for the more experienced players, how important will it be to have a granary? is it a mistake to try for philosophy, hoping for an early pottery trade? assuming we are isolated, planting down cities fast will still be important to aid research and unit construction, but how easy will it be to trade if the AI always has a lead with every tech?

 

[predesad]

I tried a test with the Byz on a standard size arch map, raging barbs and demigod difficulty. my strat was to research writing at 10%, philosophy at max (this ended up at 80-90% due to the need for luxuries. I traded for two and only two techs, alphabet for masonry, masonry for pottery. I took literature with my free tech.

My seocnd city had built curragh, warrior, then started prebuild for Great Library (Colossus, which had to be switched to palace, thus the need for masonry, because the Colossus was completed by another civ while I was researching writing.) I did manage to build the GL, I had 4 contacts and got all the AA techs except republic (plus then Feudalism for free)

there were 4 big negatives to this strat:

1) my expansion was crippled with the second city on prebuild duty and I only managed to prevent the AI who shared my landmass from steamrolling over me by the use of a 6 tile choke point, this required 2 cities and four units in between those cities because the AI ignored my borders and would declare war if I tried to boot them. When I finished the GL, galleys had started to wander around so trades / contacts were developing and soon foreign cities would pop up on those areas of land I had not yet settled.

2) i was lucky to get those four contacts because I could only afford to build three curraghs as a result of second city on prebuild duty, i had to focus more on settlers and land units for MP and to fight the raging barbs who were constantly harassing workers and any empty city. those three curraghs were destroyed by barbarian galleys and never replaced.

3) barbarians were difficulty to manage even if they are inept, due to my lack of early expansion numerouis camps sprang up. I had insufficient units on this difficulty to adequately supress them, mostly my units were occupied with MP duty, choke point patrol, settler escorts. Barbarians constantly harassed any workers or cities left unguarded. Losses against babrs were high due to low combat bonus against them. The entire point of the strat was to amass a large amount of gold and keep up in tech. I had accumulated 925 gold with 10 turns left until GL, only to see a horse barb SoD roam through my territory and as units were scrambling to guard workers / settlers and especially Adrianople which was building ther GL, one city was left especially weak and I lost 2 units, 2 population, and nearly 700 gold to the barbarians.

4) Three contacts one by one demanded I give them literature as tribute which I did not want to do because of the possibility of the Wonder Cascade causing me to lose the GL, so I ended up at war with them, including the one I shared my land mass with.

The end result is that though I was ahead in the tech race due to the benefit of getting a free tech in the MA, and I would keep up in the beginning of the MA thanx to the GL, my civ had far too many problems which outweighed the benefits of the wonder. Besides, I could have probably managed to be in about the same financial situation with some well planned trades.

My conclusion: it is not really feasible to attempt an AA wonder with these game settings. If we have a different world size, or do not share a land mass with anyone it would make a difference, as well as trying for a different wonder, however the Great Library was probably the safest wonder because the AI does not usually prioritize Literature highly, even though it has a long build. I am thinking of trying to find a save and go back and choose map making instead of literature and try for great lighthouse to see how that works out with its smaller build.

 

[Denniz]

My seocnd city had built curragh, warrior, then started prebuild for Great Library ...
my expansion was crippled with the second city on prebuild duty ...

You make a strong case for Library instead of Lighthouse. My only thought is whether waiting awhile before starting the pre-build would be better. How close would it be if you hold onto Lit? Let's say you wait until you have 4-5 cities. At that point, you would be only dedicating a fourth or fifth of your resources, at that point, instead of half. (It is like producing settlers as you reach 5 pop vs. 3 pop. Sometimes waiting to build up first gives more then starting right away. I know my math is questionable but you get the point. )

 

[Caesar of Rome]

I have used a palace prebuild for GL in my last few games. I have lingered in despotism for longer rather than having to commit to new government. I couldn't risk missing build time on library through anarchy. The gold allows embasies to be built etc. with only one scientist researching. I have relied on making contact with civs using suicide galleys etc to keep up on techs, building markets before libraries. This way though, I lag on culture.
I find monarchy easier if I am planning war. Republic is the cash generator in peace. Once the GL is in place, and if I have the tech I will change to gov i want.
"Byz shun Feudalism and prefer Monarchy." No point in waiting for that tech then!

 

[MikeH]

I think I'll have to F10 and see who our opponents are before I decide what do. However: Writing on max is definitely feasible with a river start so I may try that and the republic sling shot provided there are no other seafarers. That said, no seafarers were in the last game, so I think we may have them all this time Depends on what my nomads come up with of course

Ainwood has already given a strong hint that we're not the only seafaring civ ('Where would be the fun in that?' was his comment), still we'll know definitely in a few hours.

 

[ainwood]

That said, no seafarers were in the last game, so I think we may have them all this time Depends on what my nomads come up with of course

Spain and England are now seafaring in C3C.

BTW: Predator handicaps: AI Starting units increased to Deity level; Barb attack bonus removed.

 

[Singularity]

That should put the P in predator.

 

[Megalou]

This will be tough. Fast victories will be more scarce than they have been lately perhaps, with archipelago and demigod. Anything above emperor usually forces me to go for diplomatic or space race wins. (Starting some temples, then some libraries, then some more, and then most the AI have riflemen before I can attack them...)

Much depends on the geography of the starting island. If we share it with one civ, that will surely be an advantage. If it's small, it affects the slingshot choice: we may have to pack our cities very tightly to make republic worthwhile, whereas Map Making could allow us to expand to close islands. Code of Laws was an interesting suggestion too.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I tried two games at demigod on standard arch maps. I tried writing min, then philosophy at max. I could not get either one first in either game. At the end of 75 -100 turns, it was terrible. I was 4-6 cities and 2-4 techs behind. I had 3-4 cities.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

Spain and England are now seafaring in C3C.

BTW: Predator handicaps: AI Starting units increased to Deity level; Barb attack bonus removed.

Ooops, thanks for setting me straight. Well, they remained very sedate until Maps and I have yet to see a curragh in my test games. The research pace is frantic on demigod, though, espescially if AI civs share land masses.

 

[predesad]

You make a strong case for Library instead of Lighthouse. My only thought is whether waiting awhile before starting the pre-build would be better. How close would it be if you hold onto Lit? Let's say you wait until you have 4-5 cities. At that point, you would be only dedicating a fourth or fifth of your resources, at that point, instead of half. (It is like producing settlers as you reach 5 pop vs. 3 pop. Sometimes waiting to build up first gives more then starting right away. I know my math is questionable but you get the point. )

The only problem is you will be at war before you get the great library because your contacts will demand literacy and they will not agree to peace unless you give it to them, and if you give it to them you lose the GL because of the wonder cascade, at least that was my experience on my test game.

I am not trying to say this strat would make it impossible to be competitive, I just think this is going to be a very difficult game and pursuing an AA wonder is going to make it that much more difficult unless there are a lot of variables in our favor and there is a lot of good outside our starting screenshot.

 

[Rallonian]

When abouts does the save get released? Its 12:20pm here on 1st and I have a free afternoon with nothing to do...

 

[Lord British]

it's 2:30 pm here in Kiwiland- us Kiwis and Aussies almost have to wait till the 2nd of the month don't we!!

 

[ainwood]

About 4 hours from the timestamp of this post.

 

[Birdjaguar]

2:00 AM Mountain time USA
4:00 AM ET USA
1:00 AM PT USA
10:00 AM in Spain

How about one last clue for those of us up late?

 

[ainwood]

Plus, conquest-class players get 50 gold as well.