Conquest 04: First Spoiler

[LuuCkyJaa]

Civgeek & MiniMe,

Thanks for the tips. I was able resize the map and go back and edit my original post so that the map is where I wanted it and the post is easily readable. Thanks again!

James

 

[Paradigne]

I don't have any screenshots, but if you look at grs's my early game was almost identical (Including Denver being where it was - almost fell out of my chair when I saw that).
I didn't get any barb slaves.
I missed getting philosophy first.
I missed the pyramids by 5 turns.
<SIGH>
I did get to switch pyramids to GL though, which came in real handy. The Aztecs started a war (right after I went republic) so I dropped tech to zero and proceeded to wipe them off the face of the planet.I had to spend 6 turns switching to Monarchy because of the war wariness They tried to get the Iroquois involved but I was able to get America and Spain after them. The only Iro units I killed were a BUNCH of settler they kept sending through my lands
When I was winding down with the Aztec's (I got 2 armies there) America sent some troops into my lands looking for lands to settle, when asked to leave, they declared war... so they were next. I made short work of getting them off MY continent, but since I had no idea where there last city was (nor did I really care) since the Iroquois were still itching for a fight.
I got Spain involved in this war again, but quickly blocked their access to them with captured cities. Not to keep them out, just to slow them down. This worked well, because they concentrated on the roaming units while I took the cities ...

 

[smackster]

I am just lurking here as playing on a large map isn't appetizing. However, for what it is worth I agree with you that too much expansion at the cost of city size can be wrong. This opinion is largely based on Snaga's game in gotm23 (Monarch Arab pangea). In that game he built relatively few towns (? a dozen or so) before blitzing through the AI with breathless speed. I would refer you back to his write up: it certainly convinced me. If only I could play as well...

I had 14 cities and 36 population at 1000BC. I think that Arabs game had a number of factors that made it different to this one, being a Panagea, mostly poor land growth (desert), standard map size and a 3 move UU.

Here are my thoughts on QSC growth in this game. If you have a strong settler factory (as we do in this game) there is less need to produce settlers elsewhere. In other games without a good settler factory it can be a must to produce settlers in multiple cities, so that you expand quick enough and to stop the AI from grabbing all the land

There are a number of factors that I use to determine what cities if any (beyond the settler factory) should produce settlers in the QSC (and beyond) period.

1) Any city without a river that approaches size 6, build a settler/worker
2) Any city that forces you to push the slider, you should consider what to do with it. I like to base the slider % on my settler factory, any (connected) city that requires a bigger % should either build a settler/worker, or use a scientist.
3) Consider the OCN, does it make sense to push out a settler from one of your core cities, to settle in a totally corrupt place.

Finally in this game, my QSC period was concerned with a) the settler factory, and b) the republic slingshot. So in fact my second city got to a point where I might well push a settler out of it, and I would have probably got a couple more cities by 1000BC, but this was a critical period where I was pushing all out for CoL and then Philosophy. So what I did was to hire a scientist in various cities to squeeze down an extra turn or two of research.

smackster (hopefully I'll actually write my spoiler soon)

 

[zamint3]

Predator

Founded Chichén Itza NE.
Build order warrior, granary and then settlers for the next 2700 years.
First settler in 2710 bc.
The warrior went exploring in the north, but we newer got any early trade.
Our capital was undefended for the next 1300 years, with some very annoying American and Aztec warriors circling around.

We haven't met any barbs yet, but in 1125 bc the Aztecs declare war and 2 turns later one of their archers loose against our javelin thrower, so we enter a despotic golden age.

QSC Status :
21 cities.
40 pop
1 granary
4 barracks
2 settlers.
12 workers + 1 slave.
14 warriors
1 horseman.
4 javelin throwers.
1 curragh

Score : Maya 337, America 265, Aztecs 253, Iroquois 244, Spain 171.
Treasury 537 g, two turns from Code of Laws. AA techs left : Litt, Polytheism, Monarchy, Republic, Currency and Construction
We have embassies with America, Spain and Iroquois and are at war with the Aztecs.

 

[Roland Ehnström]

TWENTYONE cities at 1000BC??? Unreal!

Edit: But on the other hand you are still despotic and have a despotic GA... It's gonna be interesting to see if this amazing early expansion pays off or not.

-- Roland

 

[Cryspen]

Just a comment about the "ring pattern". I am afraid that this is obsolete with C3C. Corruption works differently in Conquests, so placing cities in a ring is of no use now.

-- Roland

So I've found out. I was a bit surprised to see some cities with 12 shields able to produce 11 and others with 13 only doing 9. I think normally (and in future games) I would have gone for something much closer to Predasad's city placements.

Even if it was still valid, I already knew that 'ring placement' wasn't the best method to go in the long run. I was just hoping it would give me a small advantage for the *unusually early* wars I planned. (to the goal of size 6 cities having 15 shields after corruption... a bit tricky in ancient times). Most players don't begin a conquest phase, outside of a city or two, until they have knights, and often cavalry; there are good reasons for this, as I'm sure most players here know. However, for this game, I thought it would be fun to to play this game as the *Mayans*, rather then just as a vanilla civ. To really push things and see what, if anything, was special about them, aside from their very powerful class of both agricultural and industrial. Hence, early wars with JTs.

I guess I should point out I'm also playing Predator class (I'm really an Emperor level Civ player, as I have no fear of actually losing at Monarchy level), and I was considering how fast those extra units would allow the AI to expand, and how many neighbors would be a bit war-happy early on, hence the reason I went for a pretty tight city placement - with the plan of then taking over their cities.

Even without 'shooting myself in the foot' by using an obsolete city placement, this is certainly not my best game. I rushed through far too many turns. I certainly understand, and respect, those who play the GOTM very competitively, but I just wasn't in the mood for that. For this month at least, I'm just playing to try things out, see what works, and perhaps more often, but sometimes just as useful, what doesn't work.

Long term early war has really slowed down the research pace, at least on this continent. Spain, America, Iroquois, and Aztec are all in Republic now, and their war weariness must be at max. I wonder if I can even look forward to a culture flip or two from rebelling cities? I'm sure the war weariness is crippling their economy, never mind the three to four hundred or so combat units I've destroyed. With the high cost of unit support in republic and all the war weariness, they just can't have a large army. I'm sure I'll be able to steadily march over them.

In fact, thinking about it, when I meet the rest of the world, any that are in republic/democracy, I may just go to war with too. Sea invasion by the AI is poor at the best of times and in the MA, its laughable. If I can max out their war weariness, and slow down their economies, while I spend the time conquering the home continent, so much the better.

This really was an amazing start location. Settler farm, two luxuries, horses, and iron. I do wonder what the 'surprise' will be. I fear the only saltpeter, coal, rubber, aluminum, etc are going to be on the other continent, and directly under the capital of each AI...

 

[Felton]

I've been reading posts on this site for a while and its really impoved my game. I've struggled some with the Games of the Month and never submitted one. I may submit this one (as I actually finished it) if I can figure out how. This was also my very first game with the Mayans.

In this game I built a warrior, then a granary, then a worker (to go from size 5 to 4 to start the machine), then began spitting out settlers. But I was suprised, having never played a large map, how close my neighbors were. And when I met the Americans, they had more cities than I had! And I dont think it was humanly possible for me to get that factory up faster than I did.

As my plans for infinite expansion were spoiled by greedy Abe, I decided to go to war fairly early, and let the AI's build a few of my cities. So I did not fill in some areas, mostly to the west, that I could have gotten to in the intitial exansion. Instead, I concentrated on improving my economy and building a couple of barracks, plus a few temples so I wouldnt be sleepless over culture flipping.

I had an option to "slingshot" to republic or monarchy, and chose monarchy because I had a feeling I was going to be doing alot of fighting. Although expensive, I chose to do the vet warrior to sword upgrade (I think 11 swords from that) to get a good early armed forces, though I never built any more swords (horse types from then on). I know alot of people like nothing but horses, but swords are, for me, good to lead the initial breakthrough, and are nice to have till they cant keep up anymore. I had taken out the Americans by approximately the end of the AA, and was looking forward to paying Montezuma a visit. Unfortunately, I didnt take any notes, which might be helpful in the future. Oh, and I decided not to build the Jav throwers once I realized there were no barbs in the vicinity and they were pricey for what they did, and I decided to wait and trigger my golden age till later on.

I know some posters felt the game was too easy, but I really enjoyed it.

 

[Cryspen]

Probably be a few more days before I get back to my game, what with real life and all.

Rereading the threads, it would appear that few people take into consideration which civilization they are in their opening game; which is fair enough, you go with what you know works.

It looks like only a handful of players have explored using the Maya's Unique Unit, the Javelin Thrower. I was wondering what thoughts people had on them?

At first glance, they are nothing special: 2/2/1 for 30 shields. I don't think they are either over or under priced. However, a spearman at 1/2/1 @ 20 is cheaper for defense, and a horseman at 2/1/2 @ 30 costs the same and is (far) superior for attack, with its fast movement and ability to retreat.

Worse yet, to really make use of such a weak unit, you would have to deliberately slow down the tech race, so as to give the Javelin Thrower any chance at victories.

First: The tech race. I think most would agree that slowing down the tech race is, in general, counter productive. However, is it that much of a handicap? It would certainly depend on the game, but in many I'm not sure it would be a huge factor. I wouldn't want to try to do it on a single continent game, as there would be far too much chance of one AI taking an every growing the lead in technology. However, with islands or two continents, as long as your neighbors are equal or less, there isn't too much to worry about. In this game, I don't really care if the civ's on the other continent take a tech lead. As long as I don't see bombers coming after my knights, I'm not worried. Shear production of having the most landmass always allows for a comeback.

Second: The Javalin Throwers, as stated above, nothing special about the unit in terms of combat or cost. Being a low level ancient time unit they are game-wise weak, but certainly equal to their times. So what it all really boils down to is their unique ability: Enslavement. Can enslaving make up for a slowed tech research?

To most, a worker is a 10 shields inexpensive but required unit. Even the building of a single mine will quickly pay for the worker. But is this all a really all a worker costs? I think not. First, you have upkeep. Not many advanced games let you have total units below that of the free unit costs of your chosen Government. So for simplicity, lets assume a worker also costs 1 gold per turn. There is more though, a worker also represents a unit of city population, which means one less tile being worked. That means the loss of (the reasonably low estimate) at least a shield and a gold as income. This raises the cost of a worker to perhaps 6 gold per turn? Even more in the later game. Now, Maya's are industrial, which means that workers work 50% faster, and slaves work at only 50%. Two Mayan workers can road a tile in one turn, where as it takes 6 slaves to do the same. (No, the industrial trait of the Maya's does not appear to carry over to slaves.) 1.5 vs .5 So a Mayan worker is worth 3 slaves. Therefore, a Mayan slave, in Ancient times, is worth about 2 gold per turn. Not much, but not to be ignored either. Now, corruption has not been factored in here, but for now, consider the fact that a slave is free, or at least zero city shields, and we'll call it even.

Now, in my game, I'm about a third of the way in at turn 162. I currently have 137 slaves (according to Civ assist.) I've also lost at least a dozen more due to bad management. Mind you, I also had to use no small amount of Javelin Throwers to acquire them all. I've probably lost a lot more then 40 JT's, but lets call it 40 for this theory. I'm thinking that if I had traded in 20 of those lost JT's for 30 catapults, well, I'd still have lost the other 20 JT's just from the nature of combat, BUT, I'd still have the 30 extra catapults. Those, along with the 30 I currently have would make for 60 catapults, which is nothing to ignore. In fact, I think its safe to say that I'd also have several extra cities by now, and and another dozen or two slaves.


Third: Once you destroy another civilization, you can take all your slaves from that civilization and safely turn them into population in your cities, therefore gaining the full income of a shields, gold, food, etc. which could easily add up to the equivalent of 5 gold or more per turn/each.


What does this all add up to? About 300 gold per turn during the Middle Ages... What I'm not sure is, does that equate to even more money later on, or less?

Does all this make the JT a truly useful unit? I'm not sure... but I certainly haven't ruled it out.

Also of note: I haven't played any online, but I understand that most such multi-player games often end during the low techs. Would a JT more useful in those games?


What do other people think?

 

[predesad]

@ Crypsen

I am on the verge of trying to do what you have done, the tech pace in my game is slow on my continent, basically because i limited trade and i myself researched my last tech at minimum with a scientist. i kept myslef ahead, but the others behind and did not try to do things which would accelerate my tech rate, it netted a lot of gold. Now i am planning a war with the Aztecs using primarily the JT while they are still in the AA and have no upgrade available to knights / med inf / pikes / longbows. The JT as a 2/2/1 can compete with any of the normal UU & bests the Aztec UU (I am referring to strength and mean no argument about the bonuses of the extra movement & retreat etc, etc.) I am actually hoping the Aztecs have a lot of units, and I think if used right, this strategy could definitely pay off big time, or it could crash and burn. I doubt I will have the success you had though with 100+ slaves, but I sure will enjoy trying.

 

[fbouthil]

Open

I meet america & aztec very soon, before I have built a single settler!

2190BC Aztecs bring 1 archer & 2 warriors near Copan. I pop-rush a spearman and Aztecs loose their 2 warriors against it. Ouf!

2110BC Meet Iroquois

1075BC Switch to republic after the popular republic gambit.

1050BC Contact Spain

510BC-110BC War with Aztecs leaving them 2 useless cities. Could have done better if I built more horsemen instead of JT. Got furs & ML on the last turn of war.

I enter MA around 50BC. About half of the continent was still unknown to me at the time. I did not even know where Spain was! But I have very little corruption due to the FP in Technotitlan. Those cities would build a lot of knights later, but that is another story... (to be continued)

I thought I did very well, but I see many people got it about 500 years earlier. Of well, I am learning to be more humble.

I see most civ on our continent started with more than one food bonus so I guess Ainwood was not that generous after all.

 

[Randy]

COTM04 open

I blew my time log around 2500 BC so I'm doing this from memory.

Goal quick as fast as I can get a domination win.

Start, worker went Ne, settler N. Founded Chichén Itza in 3950 BC. Study Alphabet @ 100%.

Built warrior, warrior, settler. I did this until I could build archors and swordsmen.

3300BC met Aztecs, 3150BC met an unexcorted American settler heading toward the silk. I chased him all the way back to Washington.

2850 BC: Copán founded. This puts the silk in Mayans land
2670 BC: Silk is hooked up.

My notes stop in 2550 BC this is were I attack an American worker. America only has 1 city they did not use the settler yet. NY was founded west of Washington. I got NY, all American techs, and all their gold for peace.

During the American war I met the Spanish. (I almost killed their warrior.)

I built a line of cities to block the Aztecs, I don't want to take on Jaguar Warriors yet. I'll wait for iron or horses. I later learn that Copán has iron and the next city over has horses.

I started the Spanish war before they had 3 cities. I destored their size 1 second city. Made piece for all they had.

During one of these wars I got my Republic sling shot.[dance]

The turn I met the Iroquois I took 2 of their settlers . They gave 2 or 3 cities for piece.

Around the time of the Iroquois war I started a war with the Aztecs, they were trying to send settler thru Mayans land. I took 3 cities. They give 3 cities for peace.

Next Americans now have 2 or 3 cities again. I kill them off and they respond in the south tundra. They give all they have for piece. I think 100gp and a worker.

At this time I also attack spain and Iroquois (I'm at war with 3 of 4 of the known civs. by choice. I hope this isn't stupid.)

Spain is gone, they do not respond.

Around this time I enter the MA. Can't remember the year maybe late BC?

All my galleys sank. Alot of them.
The Iroquois are almost gone.
The Aztecs are no threat.
The Americans have 2 tundra cities.

 

[plarq]

Open (Sorry for no clear timeline)

Build cities along the river
Warrior explore NW and S found America and Aztec
Buy CB from America,Suddenly found Washington D.C was captured by Aztecs.
Silk was controlled by American Philadelphia.Declare war on US, break gpt trade and razed Philly, had the silks,start dep GA.
Fight the US and seeing Aztec was gracious towards us.Had all American gold and techs for peace.Buy writing,Build embassy in NYC,steal Math from US.Contact Spain and Isabella knew our cheating US.Seeing US cities captured one by one by Aztecs.Monty didn't know my wrongs,he did't talk US!
New York was captured, but US wasn't wiped out, so Respawn must be on.
Rebuild embassy in Seattle on the SW end of our continent, poor Abe!
Pulling troop south, suddenly Aztec declared on us!Raze two new cities and captured one desert city in southern Maya. We started an revenge with Aztecs.Recaptured the city, go over mountain seperating Aztec and Maya.JTs and Swords and Horse and several cats gave a killing blow on Aztec plain. Razed their capital and two big cities near by,and Aztecs allied with Iroquios I met last turn on the Iron city on the west border of Maya.
I got Philo-MM(Free) and start on CoL building Lighthouse. Defeat the MW flood on my western borders, I also noticed Iros betrayed Aztecs and captured NYC!So my small wandering JTs attack and controlled Washington, sign peace with Aztecs.I also got a Leader and build a Sword army, build Heroic Epic on eastern coast(I abandoned Lighthouse).
The rampaging Iros keep on attacking us, I sign RoP and Alliance with Aztecs vs. Iros. Aztecs' spears and archers came to defend my front, Thx, Monty!
when most MW died on my Iron west, Aztecs suddenly sign peace with Iros!Why?We're going to win! I counterattacked Iros on the landbridge from Iro to former America,captured one city, JTs from Washington attack and autorazed New York.ANd sign peace with Iros demanding their techs and land bridge cities,left their cities in former America.They keep on reinforceing their American front while my SoD blocked the land bridge.
Build culture in Washington D.C to produce US-Gems,develope techs and send out galleys,play as a NOT and going feudalism, enter MA.Wage war after seeing message,and captured Lighthouse from Aztecs!
BTW:How to send suicide galleys, my ships just can'tstand on ocean tiles, even with Lighthouse.

 

[CarnDaWoods]

YOu have to use the keypad to move Galleys into the ocean tiles. They can not be sent there with the mouse.

 

[Psychonaut777]

Yeah they can you just have to move one square at a time.

 

[LeSphinx]

zamint3 , how do you zoom in order to take the big picture of all your cities ?
LeSphinx

 

[Capt Buttkick]

First: The tech race. I think most would agree that slowing down the tech race is, in general, counter productive. However, is it that much of a handicap? It would certainly depend on the game, but in many I'm not sure it would be a huge factor. I wouldn't want to try to do it on a single continent game, as there would be far too much chance of one AI taking an every growing the lead in technology. However, with islands or two continents, as long as your neighbors are equal or less, there isn't too much to worry about. In this game, I don't really care if the civ's on the other continent take a tech lead. As long as I don't see bombers coming after my knights, I'm not worried. Shear production of having the most landmass always allows for a comeback.

This is standard tactics for the big guns, I believe. I try to do it more and more myself.

Second: The Javalin Throwers, as stated above, nothing special about the unit in terms of combat or cost. Being a low level ancient time unit they are game-wise weak, but certainly equal to their times. So what it all really boils down to is their unique ability: Enslavement. Can enslaving make up for a slowed tech research?

I'm not sure you need to slow down research deliberately in this game to use JTs effectively. There are lots of close neighbours so the added movement of the horse is less of a factor (of course retreat ability is still a major factor which is why I started building horses at ~ 15 JTs.
However, jumping to answer your question: I do believe that for my playstyle, when I'm warmongering at the least, enslavement is a precious ability. I had around 20 aztec slaves before ending my BC war with them, only 2-3 of those were captured, the rest of them were enslaved. This meant I didn't have to use up much resources for early worker production in the captured cities, which again meant a lot more turns (combined) of scientists as the cities grew bigger.

...a worker also represents a unit of city population, which means one less tile being worked. That means the loss of (the reasonably low estimate) at least a shield and a gold as income.

I'm not altogether sure on this. I usually build very few workers off cities that aren't getting near the happyness limit, growth limit (size 7, or 6 and a full food storage in cities w/o an aqueduct) or are totally corrupt. I think a short-term sci loss (turning a citizen into a scientist instead of building a worker) is the most you actually gain from not building the worker. I'm not saying that this isn't substantial, I usually have too few workers. But I make sure I don't loose many shields by building workers.

Now, Maya's are industrial, which means that workers work 50% faster, and slaves work at only 50%.

Slaves under an industrious civ work at 75% of normal (non-industrious) worker speed in C3C. Are you sure you didn't look at slave workers under anarchy or something?

Therefore, a Mayan slave, in Ancient times, is worth about 2 gold per turn. Not much, but not to be ignored either.

I'd call this significant, even more so considering that you seem to have calced one gold upkeep for our workers. Most of us use republic so that's +2 gold upkeep for each domestic worker

Now, in my game, I'm about a third of the way in at turn 162. I currently have 137 slaves (according to Civ assist.) I've also lost at least a dozen more due to bad management. Mind you, I also had to use no small amount of Javelin Throwers to acquire them all. I've probably lost a lot more then 40 JT's, but lets call it 40 for this theory. I'm thinking that if I had traded in 20 of those lost JT's for 30 catapults, well, I'd still have lost the other 20 JT's just from the nature of combat, BUT, I'd still have the 30 extra catapults. Those, along with the 30 I currently have would make for 60 catapults, which is nothing to ignore. In fact, I think its safe to say that I'd also have several extra cities by now, and and another dozen or two slaves.

Like I said before, I switched off JT production earlier, but I don't have nearly as many slaves as you either. I think this will vary from game to game and depend on where you're going with your game. I would never consider using JTs against 3-defense units though, and most of my kills were against hurt spears or warriors/Jags/archer

Third: Once you destroy another civilization, you can take all your slaves from that civilization and safely turn them into population in your cities, therefore gaining the full income of a shields, gold, food, etc. which could easily add up to the equivalent of 5 gold or more per turn/each.

I like my no-upkeep workers, thank you

 

[Caldazar]

I've been playing a few games on large worlds, but I keep forgetting how close everyone are.
I met the Aztecs just a few turns after I started to move my first warrior. My first building
que was warrior --> warrior --> settler --> granary --> many settlers...

I wanted to settle my second city fairly early and this was a good move in my opinion, since
I managed to link the spices quickly so I was in no need of increasing the luxuries. I also built
the second city quickly because I wanted MP in my capital and military to scout and protect
my lands. If I don't scout my land thoroughly I tend to place my cities without thought, or
perhaps I'll lose important resources/luxuries, which I'm hunting with passion

I have played quite a few games with multipel fronts before, I know the outcome of such
a game. Even if I win, it's always better to take out enemies one by one. At this time I
found the Americans to be a greedy lot, though they managed to build lots of spears
early on, so I figured I needed an allied to bring them down quickly. It was not hard to
convince Spain, that the Americans in fact was looking for world domination. The deal ended
up pretty good actually, and I decided to spare the Spaniards for now. Spain was able to
limit the amount of American reinforcement to their more distant towns, while the mighty
Mayans captured them one after another. Finally the fearsome JT stood outside of Washington,
but they decided to wait for the some Swords before they started the attack. At this
time, not surprising at all, the Aztecs demanded at tribute. They wanted silks and the
Mayans decided that this was something they could afford, for now. So there was no
war against the Aztecs at this time, who had grown quite powerful.

Highlights:
* Mayan was able to capture all American towns and keep the Spaniards at their peninsula.
(Except one town north of the Spanish border).
* They also manage to build quite a few AA wonders, even though this was not exactly a goal,
but a bonus.
* Big tech lead

Failures:
* Failed the slingshot to Republic, another civilization manage to get Philosophy before the Mayans.
* Failed to make an early contact with the other civilizations, which rendered the GL less profitable.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

zamint3 , how do you zoom in order to take the big picture of all your cities ?
LeSphinx

Press 'z' for zoom

 

[Cryspen]

zamint3 , how do you zoom in order to take the big picture of all your cities ?
LeSphinx

That would the the 'Z' key (for Zoom)

Check out:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7359

for a great reference file, including they keyboard commands.

 

[LeSphinx]

Thanks Cryspen
LeSphinx