Conversion?
- Thread starter mizzile
- Start date
The_Quasar
King
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2010
- Messages
- 862
Definitely!
To take advantage of a superior game ( at least it is now, even if it wasn't when it first came out)...Please post why also.
gopher666
Chieftain
I definitely think you should switch, although it depends on your preferences.
Pros:
*Hex grid takes some getting used to, but ultimately allows for more fluid movement.
*Combat is vastly improved. It's a lot more entertaining, requiring more tactical thinking and removing unit stacking. Defending is a lot more viable now.
*Health system (for cities) removed entirely.
*Happiness system not tracked per city, but for the civ as a whole. Plus, the consequences of unhappy citizens are more liveable.
*Game as a whole has been streamlined, which is in itself nice.
Cons:
*Religion gone (although that's coming back in with G&K).
*Cultural spheres work differently (no chance of assimilating rival land except with culture bombs). Civics have generally been simplified into one system, which can be good or bad, depending.
*No espionage (I find that to be a -plus-, but still, it's a removed feature).
Pros:
*Hex grid takes some getting used to, but ultimately allows for more fluid movement.
*Combat is vastly improved. It's a lot more entertaining, requiring more tactical thinking and removing unit stacking. Defending is a lot more viable now.
*Health system (for cities) removed entirely.
*Happiness system not tracked per city, but for the civ as a whole. Plus, the consequences of unhappy citizens are more liveable.
*Game as a whole has been streamlined, which is in itself nice.
Cons:
*Religion gone (although that's coming back in with G&K).
*Cultural spheres work differently (no chance of assimilating rival land except with culture bombs). Civics have generally been simplified into one system, which can be good or bad, depending.
*No espionage (I find that to be a -plus-, but still, it's a removed feature).
The_Quasar
King
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2010
- Messages
- 862
Both Religion AND Espionage are in G&K
Culture is different, and, imho, probably better in V.
renkenbd
Chieftain
Overall, I agree that Civ V is a significantly better experience. There are two things I really miss: one is diplomacy. In Civ IV diplomacy was understandable. You could actually include it in your strategy because it seemed to follow a fairly realistic cause-effect paradigm and was transparent. In Civ V, it is whimsical, irrational, unpredictable, and mysterious. You cannot figure it into your strategy as it is seemingly random.
The other issue is the Tech Tree. While still deep, it seems more contrived in Civ V, less "organic" and natural. When I played Civ IV, I really had the feel that I was progressing logically through time. In Civ V, it feels more like I am playing a game (which is OK, but I don't prefer it).
Oh, and I should add: Privateers. I read one single preview someplace that listed it as a feature in the expansion pack, but I cannot find anything more to corroborate that.
The other issue is the Tech Tree. While still deep, it seems more contrived in Civ V, less "organic" and natural. When I played Civ IV, I really had the feel that I was progressing logically through time. In Civ V, it feels more like I am playing a game (which is OK, but I don't prefer it).
Oh, and I should add: Privateers. I read one single preview someplace that listed it as a feature in the expansion pack, but I cannot find anything more to corroborate that.
Vanilla certainly is not better. With GnK it may be.
I highly recommend it, my favorite game of all time, and I love Civs IV and III too.
It's just that, especially after reading and learning about the Gods & Kings expansion out in three weeks, I just can't go back to those games.
Civ IV's Religion, combat and espionage are simply AWFUL.
Of course I haven't tried the ones from G&K yet but they seem very promising and fun.
Some important features of Civ V:
Social policies.
It's a matter of taste of course but I love SPs compared to goverments and civics, I love the customization and choices of SPs.
City-States
Bring another aspect to the mechanics, and one that will be improved a lot in G&K too.
It's fun to wage distant wars with the help of your "dominion", gifting them units and fulfilling missions. You can use them to secret wars, it's great funding a CS when they struggle against an empire and humiliate them.
Gives a true empire feel to the game.
Combat
Not possible going back to big stacks after Civ V combat, even as AI has trouble with it.
The new combat mechanics and machine guns of G&K will are welcome too.
Unique Abilities/Units/Buildings/Improvements of Civs
The classic traits-system of past games pales in comparison to the Unique Abilities the empires have in Civ V. Open more strategy possibilities and gives flavor. Combine this with additional customizing with the help of Social Policies and you can create really cool empires. Also the reigion will add more choices when planning your strategies.
Some of the Unique Abilities, units etc. are pretty imaginative too, good examples are Polynesia and Spain. Also it's cool to have unique tile improvements and even a unique Great General.
****
Theres loads of other things I love in V compared to previous ones, from Natural wonders and Art deco art in Civilopedia to culture and great people using. Even diplomacy, which has a bad reputation, has good shining qualities and can be managed. And the most crazy stuff like people holding grudge for a millennia, will gladly be redone in expansion.
It's just that, especially after reading and learning about the Gods & Kings expansion out in three weeks, I just can't go back to those games.
Civ IV's Religion, combat and espionage are simply AWFUL.
Of course I haven't tried the ones from G&K yet but they seem very promising and fun.
Some important features of Civ V:
Social policies.
It's a matter of taste of course but I love SPs compared to goverments and civics, I love the customization and choices of SPs.
City-States
Bring another aspect to the mechanics, and one that will be improved a lot in G&K too.
It's fun to wage distant wars with the help of your "dominion", gifting them units and fulfilling missions. You can use them to secret wars, it's great funding a CS when they struggle against an empire and humiliate them.
Gives a true empire feel to the game.
Combat
Not possible going back to big stacks after Civ V combat, even as AI has trouble with it.
The new combat mechanics and machine guns of G&K will are welcome too.
Unique Abilities/Units/Buildings/Improvements of Civs
The classic traits-system of past games pales in comparison to the Unique Abilities the empires have in Civ V. Open more strategy possibilities and gives flavor. Combine this with additional customizing with the help of Social Policies and you can create really cool empires. Also the reigion will add more choices when planning your strategies.
Some of the Unique Abilities, units etc. are pretty imaginative too, good examples are Polynesia and Spain. Also it's cool to have unique tile improvements and even a unique Great General.
****
Theres loads of other things I love in V compared to previous ones, from Natural wonders and Art deco art in Civilopedia to culture and great people using. Even diplomacy, which has a bad reputation, has good shining qualities and can be managed. And the most crazy stuff like people holding grudge for a millennia, will gladly be redone in expansion.
warlordtheft
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2006
- Messages
- 47
Note really random in my book. It just declares war on you eventually. Though me being a warmonger tends to lead to hostile feelings anyway.
Civ V diplo isn't random at all, it's possible to stay friendly with 90% of other empires for the game, of course you can't help it if your neighbour is Harald Bluetooth or if another empire decides to go blitzkrieg all over.
It's about carefully deciding which civs to DoF with, who to denounce, how to interract with City-states who count as actual full civilizations.
What's a real bummer is that the AI is too unforgiving, holds grudge for deeds done many many centuries ago. Fortunately designers have promised it will change. Look for thread that discusses changes to diplo in G&K, sorry don't have a link.
Also friendships will matter more in G&K as you can only do research agreements with friends.
And yeah Privateers have been confirmed to the expansion! I've been longing for them too.. along with machineguns and gatlings that will add to tactics.
and what really gets me happy is to get a full new era, and a line of World War I -era units, like biplane fighters and bombers, early tank etc. Not sure if you knew this already.
I love them too and agree wholeheartedly, but I cannot get back into squares anymore.
This might be oversimplified, but basically I agree. If you treat the AI like autistic loonies, avoid interacting with them at all (meaning apart from research agreements you best ignore them completely and say "whatever" to everything they come up with, so you don't make someone else angry if you're getting too friendly to the other), don't settle near them, keep enough military around to reject friendly Monty's random DoW, and manage to make enough money to bribe all the city states into supporting, protecting and voting diplomatic victory for you - you can't do too much wrong in this game...
The Almighty dF
Pharaoh
I'd advise against it, and here's why:
1. Game is far easier due to the following;
-Happiness, happiness everywhere. Seriously, you have to try to not be buried in happiness.
-The AI is absolutely moronic. The only playstyle they know is "Place cities in moronic places, spam military units, make stupid demands, and either win by zerg rush or die trying."
-Overpowered civilization bonuses that make it way too easy to overcome your enemies on any difficulty, ranging from those that launch you up ahead technologically, or give you a chance of getting a bunch of free soldiers early on.
2. The game has less replayability compared to 4 due to having less strategic choices, less leaders, and a much, much smaller, less active, and sadly less successful modding community.
3. Civ4 can look much more aesthetically pleasing with mods than 5. Look into things the various options you have under the graphical modifications, some amazing things to be found there.
4. The multiplayer is far, far buggier and less stable than 4. That's not to say that 4's is exactly great, but it's still a step ahead of 5.
5. You already have way more content than 4 has. A huge tech tree, so many scenarios, leaders, civs, world wonders, national wonders, map styles, etc, and that's not including the huge amount of content you have access to due to the more active and large modding community Civ4 has.
For more reasons why Civ5 is complete garbage, I recommend reading this:
http://www.garath.net/Sullla/Civ5/whatwentwrong.html
1. Game is far easier due to the following;
-Happiness, happiness everywhere. Seriously, you have to try to not be buried in happiness.
-The AI is absolutely moronic. The only playstyle they know is "Place cities in moronic places, spam military units, make stupid demands, and either win by zerg rush or die trying."
-Overpowered civilization bonuses that make it way too easy to overcome your enemies on any difficulty, ranging from those that launch you up ahead technologically, or give you a chance of getting a bunch of free soldiers early on.
2. The game has less replayability compared to 4 due to having less strategic choices, less leaders, and a much, much smaller, less active, and sadly less successful modding community.
3. Civ4 can look much more aesthetically pleasing with mods than 5. Look into things the various options you have under the graphical modifications, some amazing things to be found there.
4. The multiplayer is far, far buggier and less stable than 4. That's not to say that 4's is exactly great, but it's still a step ahead of 5.
5. You already have way more content than 4 has. A huge tech tree, so many scenarios, leaders, civs, world wonders, national wonders, map styles, etc, and that's not including the huge amount of content you have access to due to the more active and large modding community Civ4 has.
For more reasons why Civ5 is complete garbage, I recommend reading this:
http://www.garath.net/Sullla/Civ5/whatwentwrong.html
Nice, now I am truly disheartened from playing it until Gods and Kings comes out.
BTW that article is very straight forward and correct. I hope some of the defenders of the AI and especially current diplomacy, read it.
Tom Sawyer
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2004
- Messages
- 15
I initially didn't buy Civ V because of Sulla's articles - then I received it as a gift and gave it a try. I've found that (at least after the patches) it was a pretty good game.
Granted I play intermittently, at "prince" level.
What I especially like is that the AI will be active - the AI in civ IV seemed to avoid war and also seemed to "turtle" in its cities when attacked. In Civ V I've seen the AI attempt some decent invasions. (Massed units with infantry leading, cannons in the rear; massed amphibious attack, etc.)
The diplomacy (at least after the patches) didn't seem as flawed as many have pointed out - I was able to maintain friendly relations with 2 AIs throughout my most recent game. The trick seems to identify the blocs or cliques and respect those.
Yes there is room for improvement but overall I've enjoyed my civ V games as much as my civ IV games - I'd recommend civ V.
Granted I play intermittently, at "prince" level.
What I especially like is that the AI will be active - the AI in civ IV seemed to avoid war and also seemed to "turtle" in its cities when attacked. In Civ V I've seen the AI attempt some decent invasions. (Massed units with infantry leading, cannons in the rear; massed amphibious attack, etc.)
The diplomacy (at least after the patches) didn't seem as flawed as many have pointed out - I was able to maintain friendly relations with 2 AIs throughout my most recent game. The trick seems to identify the blocs or cliques and respect those.
Yes there is room for improvement but overall I've enjoyed my civ V games as much as my civ IV games - I'd recommend civ V.
However most of what Sulla says and critizises from a point of a view of game design, game mechanics and balance (still) makes a lot of sense. His criticism on city states, diplomacy, global happiness, 1UPT and it's implementation and consequences is spot on. Just recently read his "5 Questions", which he wrote before the game was even released, and I was really astonished how perfectly he anticipated the problems this game would have and to some extend still has. So this guy must have a really deep understanding of game mechancis and what impact changes have, that goes way beyond anything a simple player usually gets to see and experience. This does not necessarily mean it's impssible to enjoy the game or it's unable to be fixed to some extend. However at least a times when the games still costed a lot more than the 10 or so bucks it costs now I would have recommended anyone to at least read Sulla's article - and then buy on your own risk... ; ) Because if you can follow what he talks about and care about those issues, chances are high you might have some problems with the game. If you don't care about his issues or think what he's writting is nonsense, then you have good chances to enjoy the game...
Sherlock
Just one more turn...
I like how the tedious stuff is gone. For example for dominion you only need to conquer capitals. Happiness instead of Happiness AND Health (one is plenty).
No more stacks of doom is a HUGE improvement in gameplay.
No more stacks of doom is a HUGE improvement in gameplay.
Civ V diplo isn't random at all, it's possible to stay friendly with 90% of other empires for the game, of course you can't help it if your neighbour is Harald Bluetooth or if another empire decides to go blitzkrieg all over.
It's about carefully deciding which civs to DoF with, who to denounce, how to interract with City-states who count as actual full civilizations.
What's a real bummer is that the AI is too unforgiving, holds grudge for deeds done many many centuries ago. Fortunately designers have promised it will change. Look for thread that discusses changes to diplo in G&K, sorry don't have a link.
Also friendships will matter more in G&K as you can only do research agreements with friends.
And yeah Privateers have been confirmed to the expansion! I've been longing for them too.. along with machineguns and gatlings that will add to tactics.
and what really gets me happy is to get a full new era, and a line of World War I -era units, like biplane fighters and bombers, early tank etc. Not sure if you knew this already.
When you talk about the new era, that means ahead, correct. If so, I do that SO EASILY in civ3.
