Corporate Maintenance Explained

Converting $ TO Bulbs/Culture is easy. You just move the empire slider. ^_^

You do have some control over concentrating it, but...

Note that we have people running representation, working scientists, in a maxed-out city, with maximium soak, and they are barely breaking even. And larger cities cost more per unit of resource generated!

Converting $ to Food/Hammers is harder.

Converting $ to working tiles: honestly, those tiles have a huge opp. cost that isn't reflected. Before planes tiles are optimal, you have to run out of better places to build cottages -- which means a large city, which means higher costs per unit resource.

The inflation scaling thing is another large problem. Sure, you can often beat the game earlier -- but it doesn't seem balanced...
 
the .xls spreadsheets example resulted in -10.07 from the start

edit: so this was updated then?

nothing is work on the .xls spreadsheet now. a change in companies or adding banks/markets does nothing

Note that a University w/o a Library is the same as a University with a Library. Because the Library must exist for a University to be built, adding a University by itself assumes the Library (and thus 50%). Adding a Library at that point has no additional benefit, since the Library was technically already built as soon as you said there's a University. (Likewise with Forge-IW, Observatory-Lab, Bank-Wall Street.)

Are you using the .xls (97-2003) or .xlsx (2007)?

I use Excel 2k7, so I have to save the file in "Compatibility Mode". (I don't have any previous versions of Excel, so I have no way to check just how compatible compatible is.

Before planes tiles are optimal, you have to run out of better places to build cottages -- which means a large city, which means higher costs per unit resource.

How about we call it a Tundra Town then .!? We've all seen horribly-placed hunting/fishing towns lucky to be size 12 with a whole countryside of 1 :food: tiles. 5.25 :food: and 29 :hammers: will go a long for converting that useless plot of land into a veritable :gold:-mine!
 
I am using excel 2003. I also used the microsoft conversion utility but it isnt working. finally it's trying to reference an .xml file that it doesnt have entitled book1.xlsx.

perhaps saving this as a blank slate and uploading it? it seems to be a problem of bank, market, grocer being clicked to yes in the save.

If possible do you have a 3rd party site one could download the file at?

EDIT:

Okay, now it's working better. there is still an issue with the changing of market/bank/grocer and the results not being updated though. at least you can change them now. the inflation still isnt calculated correctly. I think it might be a problem with the upload.
 
Note that a University w/o a Library is the same as a University with a Library. Because the Library must exist for a University to be built, adding a University by itself assumes the Library (and thus 50%). Adding a Library at that point has no additional benefit, since the Library was technically already built as soon as you said there's a University. (Likewise with Forge-IW, Observatory-Lab, Bank-Wall Street.)

Are you using the .xls (97-2003) or .xlsx (2007)?

I use Excel 2k7, so I have to save the file in "Compatibility Mode". (I don't have any previous versions of Excel, so I have no way to check just how compatible compatible is.



How about we call it a Tundra Town then .!? We've all seen horribly-placed hunting/fishing towns lucky to be size 12 with a whole countryside of 1 :food: tiles. 5.25 :food: and 29 :hammers: will go a long for converting that useless plot of land into a veritable :gold:-mine!

this strategy has an caveat that is ridiculous and severe lynch pin. the ability to destroy the courthouse raises the costs by 50 gold at an inflation multiplier of 2.5 (150% in game). not only does this increase the cost of the corps it also increase the entire cities cost.

seriously, a well co-ordinated attack (imagine every city you own losing a courthouse) could completely destroy you. in fact this exploit could be used at any time but it affects corp running civs especially harshly.

This can be used against the AI to cripple them even more by aggressive spreading.
 
this strategy has an caveat that is ridiculous and severe lynch pin. the ability to destroy the courthouse raises the costs by 50 gold at an inflation multiplier of 2.5 (150% in game). not only does this increase the cost of the corps it also increase the entire cities cost.

seriously, a well co-ordinated attack (imagine every city you own losing a courthouse) could completely destroy you. in fact this exploit could be used at any time but it affects corp running civs especially harshly.

This can be used against the AI to cripple them even more by aggressive spreading.

You know, some people are going to hate that aspect of the game and will want the option to take Corporations out or say they are broken.

Personally, I like that there are more elements to this game (including this Corporate element) and more intelligent choices that have to be made in light of them.

I've always enjoyed Wonder-hogging, so I look forward to the challenge of Corporation-hogging now.

I might change my mind as I dig deeper into the game, but since I just got the game last week, I'm more than willing to naively accept everything the game has to offer without passing too much early judgment.
 
You know, some people are going to hate that aspect of the game and will want the option to take Corporations out or say they are broken.

Personally, I like that there are more elements to this game (including this Corporate element) and more intelligent choices that have to be made in light of them.

I've always enjoyed Wonder-hogging, so I look forward to the challenge of Corporation-hogging now.

I might change my mind as I dig deeper into the game, but since I just got the game last week, I'm more than willing to naively accept everything the game has to offer without passing too much early judgment.

I agree, we are all being a bit harsh on corps. Perhaps you can start a thread on effective corp usage? ;) And I will be the foil to all your ideas ;) :mischief:
 
You know, some people are going to hate that aspect of the game and will want the option to take Corporations out or say they are broken.

Personally, I like that there are more elements to this game (including this Corporate element) and more intelligent choices that have to be made in light of them.

But the AI is clearly *not* making intelligent choices concerning corporations. It just spams them all over the place and sinks itself into oblivian (until it wises up enough to switch to a civic that effectively nullifies corporations(?)). You consider this 'fixed'? I certainly don't. I can see that very judicious use of the corporation, plus a bit of malignent use against the AI, can make corporations less of a burden toward the end game. By less of a burden, I'm considering the benefits as well. But do you really believe this was how this was the mechanic intended for the game?

Personally, I'd love to see the settings the developer(s) of this functionality was using to employ and test this feature. My games tend to be long and stretch well into the late age; just my style. Whatever settings and style was the backdrop for this implementation must never have involved a relatively long game, (though well within the default period for a Time Victory), and/or been some sort of exotic world where the mechanic actually works as most would intuitely think it is intended to work. It would be really interesting to see just how those games were setup and played out.
 
Personally, I'd love to see the settings the developer(s) of this functionality was using to employ and test this feature. My games tend to be long and stretch well into the late age; just my style. Whatever settings and style was the backdrop for this implementation must never have involved a relatively long game, (though well within the default period for a Time Victory), and/or been some sort of exotic world where the mechanic actually works as most would intuitely think it is intended to work. It would be really interesting to see just how those games were setup and played out.

Advanced start?
 
But the AI is clearly *not* making intelligent choices concerning corporations. It just spams them all over the place and sinks itself into oblivian (until it wises up enough to switch to a civic that effectively nullifies corporations(?)). You consider this 'fixed'? I certainly don't. I can see that very judicious use of the corporation, plus a bit of malignent use against the AI, can make corporations less of a burden toward the end game. By less of a burden, I'm considering the benefits as well. But do you really believe this was how this was the mechanic intended for the game?

Personally, I'd love to see the settings the developer(s) of this functionality was using to employ and test this feature. My games tend to be long and stretch well into the late age; just my style. Whatever settings and style was the backdrop for this implementation must never have involved a relatively long game, (though well within the default period for a Time Victory), and/or been some sort of exotic world where the mechanic actually works as most would intuitely think it is intended to work. It would be really interesting to see just how those games were setup and played out.

Just because a couple AIs get it wrong in a couple games doesn't mean every leader gets it wrong every time or that the whole system is fundamentally flawed.

This forum is ripe with claims against the AI for all kinds of reasons. Then right next to them are claims the AI is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

It's even possible that everyone is right.

BtS has been out now for just over a week (though many of us either just got it or are still waiting), so I still can't fathom how it can be that everybody knows all about everything in this game and how it is so broke. These same people also happen to already know everything about how to fix it.

Doesn't that strike you as somewhat odd?

You consider this 'fixed'? I certainly don't.
...
But do you really believe this was how this was the mechanic intended for the game?

To both of those questions I answer, "I don't know". And forgive me for being so bold but neither do you. Neither does anybody on these forums who weren't part of the design team.

It could be that everything about BtS is broke and that not one single element of it is correct.

Even if this is true, I will not base my belief of it on a handful of games played within the first few days/weeks of the BtS release nor upon 'hearsay' via these forums.

Quite honestly, I think most of these 'problems' which have so far arisen are nothing more than subjective preferences based on "the way I would've done it".

Both in mathematical theory and in practice, I've found Corporations to be a great element in BtS. I have yet to experience the idiotic "Corporate Zealot" AI that incorporates himself into the dirt. This could either be because my games don't go on for long enough or because only certain AIs have that propensity (similar to how some leaders will spread their religion almost to a fault sometimes).


So I guess to sum it up, I'm saying that I don't believe any of us are qualified enough yet to determine which elements of BtS are working and which ones are broke.
 
Corporation isn't about mindlessly spamming branches in opponent cities, learn to play the game, the current design is flawed. (wow look I can use the "you need to learn to use them" as well)
 
Of course, this means that sending your corporations to other cities can make them lose about 10 gold/turn per corp. Do that to a few cities, and your enemies are going to feel a lot of pain.

Thats what i was saying in the other thread, if you spread a corparation to the computer they kill themselves with it! unless they sit on state property the entire time in which case corparation don't matter.
 
Since you have edited your example, I would like to comment on it again:

OTAKUjbski said:
# 200% Inflation ( Maintenance * 3.00 ) = net -30.1 gold
# Spread both your Corporations to just one foreign city = net -0.1 gold

# 300% Inflation ( Maintenance * 4.00 ) = net -20.15 gold
# Spread both your Corporations to one more foreign city = net +9.85 gold

You basically say, that the corporation in your example is making a net -30 gold per turn while making +5.25 :food: and +9 :hammers: at 200% inflation if you have optimal civics and control the perfectly placed headquarters and play at a low difficulty level.

The question should be if that is worth it. Is it worth it to create that corporation in your own city? But then you do something weird. You're adding the wealth accumulated by two foreign placed corporations. Oh, I won't argue with you that a foreign placed corporation is making a net profit without any losses (except the initial investment), but it won't change the decision whether the corporation in your own territory is worth it. The corporation in your own territory should be self sufficient or otherwise you would be better of not creating it at all.

We have seen an almost optimal domestically placed corporation at 200% inflation. Lets look at a less optimal sitiation.

Basic maintenance is still 53.44 :gold: and the profit +5.25 :food: and +9 :hammers:. But now the corporation headquarters were placed in a city without Wall Street because a third competing corporation headquarters was already present in the Wall Street city. Still we have a grocer, bank and market there for +100% gold, so it should be ok. Also, we were forced into environmentalism by the UN. And last, we are playing at deity level. We were smart enough to place a courthouse in our city with corporation. I'm not looking for a worst case scenario, although I'm looking at what happens at high levels in a non-ideal situation. We still control the headquarters, so it should not be too bad to place a corporation in one of our cities.

Upkeep in the city 0.5*1.25* (53.44 gold) = 33.4 gold (effect of courthouse and environmentalism)
With the difficulty level multiplier of 1.5 it becomes 50.1 gold
Then we add inflation of 200% for a total upkeep of 150.3 gold
Now we subtract the income from the headquarters of 20 gold for a total loss of 130.3 gold.

Ok, that makes it 130.3 :gold: for +5.25 :food: and +9 :hammers:. I must say, I'm not really interested in this corporation under such circumstances. If the headquarters could have been constructed in the Wall Street city, it would have been 120.3 :gold: for +5.25 :food: and +9 :hammers:. Still not interested.
If we weren't in control of the headquarters, it would be 150.3 :gold: for +5.25 :food: and +9 :hammers:.

Of course, the food and hammers can sometimes be used to great effect, but the cost is just too high.

My problem with the mechanic is not the fact that the costs are too steep. That just makes them useless at high levels with high inflation levels. The problem that I have is that the inflation mechanic determines if they are profitable. For instance, if inflation had been 0% in this example, then it would have been
30.1 :gold: for +5.25 :food: and +9 :hammers: or 20.1 :gold: for +5.25 :food: and +9 :hammers: if you had build the headquarters in the Wall Street city.
So if you found a corporation in a city while inflation is still relatively low, then the corporation can still be interesting. But after a while when inflation increases, it will become a burden instead of a profit. The profitability of a corporation just shouldn't be linked to the turn in the game (inflation is purely linked to the turn of the game).

I'm actually pretty confident that Firaxis just made a mistake by letting corporation cost be effected by inflation. Just a small programming mistake with great consequences. It will be patched.
 
Just because a couple AIs get it wrong in a couple games doesn't mean every leader gets it wrong every time or that the whole system is fundamentally flawed.

Well, actually, this is a perfectly valid way to test software features. If 10 people play ten games, and in two of them an extreme flaw is found, then it is fairly safe to conclude that the feature is broken and needs to be looked at. Furthere if the flaw is %100 percent reproducable under the same circumstance (as is the case with corporations), then you have confirmation of the flaw.

This forum is ripe with claims against the AI for all kinds of reasons. Then right next to them are claims the AI is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

*shrug* The AI is better, in some cases, incredibly better. But there are clearly still some issues here and there. These are pointed out. Nothing wrong with that.

These same people also happen to already know everything about how to fix it.

Doesn't that strike you as somewhat odd?

Keep in mind the audience here. There are a lot of hard-core gamers here who can and have put this game through its paces. There are some very experienced and capable modders and programmers here. Some of them probably *do* know how to fix this, especially considering that many of these types were brought in by Firaxis to do work on this expansion.
Flak said:
You consider this 'fixed'? I certainly don't.
...
But do you really believe this was how this was the mechanic intended for the game?

To both of those questions I answer, "I don't know". And forgive me for being so bold but neither do you. Neither does anybody on these forums who weren't part of the design team.

I think I do have a pretty good concept of what's broken and what's not. And I think most of the experienced gamers and modders on this forum do as well. It's not like we all have just sat here, been handed this game, and started pushing buttons. We've delved into the mechanics of this game by playing, trying obvious things, trying crazy things, and by looking at the code, and in some cases, modding it as I've done. The code isn't unreadable, the commenting usually is not bad. It's not impossible to figure what they probably intended. In this case, I don't feel I have to look at the code because the game mechanics from a playability standpoint make the issue obvious. Even your own simulation reveals the problem.

It could be that everything about BtS is broke and that not one single element of it is correct.
No need to go to extremes. Corporations are broken. They can, and will be fixed. That's all. It's not the end of the Civ world. It's a bit disappointing. We'll live.

Even if this is true, I will not base my belief of it on a handful of games played within the first few days/weeks of the BtS release nor upon 'hearsay' via these forums.

There are a LOT of hardcore gamers and modders here. We're not talking about a handful of games.

Quite honestly, I think most of these 'problems' which have so far arisen are nothing more than subjective preferences based on "the way I would've done it".

Well there's more to it than this. This feature had to be developed from scratch, tested as best as possible, and released along with several other copmlex components by a certain date. Some issues got through. Some might be subjective as you describe, but there are unquestionably some things that are broken that are going to get through the process of making a game, any game. Intuitively speaking, this has happened with with corporations in BTS.


So I guess to sum it up, I'm saying that I don't believe any of us are qualified enough yet to determine which elements of BtS are working and which ones are broke.

I think you're wrong. I think there are plenty of people here who are qualified to determine exactly that and to what details. Else Firaxis would never have recruited anybody here to work on the expansion!
 
Does anybody here have a 'working' mod which has removed the corp maintenance from inflation and they'd be willing to upload to CFC? I'll happily try it out.

That would be awesome, but I doubt it. This isn't a simple XML tag fix thing. The code that ties maintanance to inflation relates to alot of things. I'll give a cookie and a donut to anyone that comes up a community patch to fix this though.
 
BtS has been out now for just over a week (though many of us either just got it or are still waiting), so I still can't fathom how it can be that everybody knows all about everything in this game and how it is so broke. These same people also happen to already know everything about how to fix it.

It's the same thing as in the Starcraft forums in the early 2000. As soon as something is new, some people shout about "broken", "overpowered" or "unbalanced". It's even the same words. Another similiarity is that you never see the true experts join in on this.
 
It's the same thing as in the Starcraft forums in the early 2000. As soon as something is new, some people shout about "broken", "overpowered" or "unbalanced". It's even the same words. Another similiarity is that you never see the true experts join in on this.

I am not sure if the current Corporation system is broken or not. The game isn't out for a week for some people and even shorter for most. Understanding and using new features takes time. Right now Corporations seem hard and maybe even broken, but I won't be surprised if soon we will get a grip on it and actually start base strategies on it. The point is, it's too soon to state a definite conclusion about the way the feature works.
 
State Property is like erasing your civ of everything corporate as if it never existed.

No Corporate Fees. No Corporate Benefits. No Corporate income (at HQ). Nothing.

No, that's wrong, I checked it yesterday in my game. You still earn gold for the FOREIGN cities where your corp is expanded when you're in state property.

You just don't earn any money for YOUR cities where a corp is expanded, and the foreign corps don't earn anything for your cities where they expanded their corps either.

So a very good strategy is to found multiple corps in your wall street city, then expand YOUR corp everywhere, then switch to State Property. I'm not the only one to do that, I saw the Romans AI do the same too :)

I make tons of gold like that, without any maintenance cost.

The only small downside of this is if your opponents also switch to SP (you just stop earning gold for their cities), but in general AI doesn't, especially small civs where the number of resources is low and the maintenance small.
 
No, that's wrong, I checked it yesterday in my game. You still earn gold for the FOREIGN cities where your corp is expanded when you're in state property.

So a good strategy is to found corps in your wall street city, then expand YOUR corp everywhere, then switch to State Property.

I make tons of gold like that, without any maintenance cost.

The only small downside of this is if your opponents also switch to SP (you just stop earning gold for their cities), but in general AI doesn't, especially small civs where the number of resources is low and the maintenance small.

Really? I didn't know that, that's actually an interesting strategy.
 
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