Corporations as trade agreements.

[DVS]

UPDATE: Ok, replacing corps is out, bad idea. Thanks guys.

We're going to use a new screen for trade organizations. Details here.




If the posts below seem out of place it's because I drastically edited this post after taking their advice!

I had proposed to attempt to represent trade organizations by modifying the corporation function.

 

[whitelaughter]

And motive to not conquer other members would be - what?

If the Corp consumes resources, then every member state will need to have those resources. Making fellow member states look tastier than non-member states.

 

[sheep21]

EU is more than just a trade agreement,
The EU binds us in europe so close together that we would never go to war with eachother again. Hell, the highest court of appeal is the European Court of Human Rights, not the House of Lords.

 

[DVS]

EU is more than just a trade agreement,
The EU binds us in europe so close together that we would never go to war with eachother again. Hell, the highest court of appeal is the European Court of Human Rights, not the House of Lords.

Right, that is why the EU is a civ as well.

 

[DVS]

And motive to not conquer other members would be - what?

If the Corp consumes resources, then every member state will need to have those resources. Making fellow member states look tastier than non-member states.

Ok, it may need some tweaking. Maybe the corps don't consume resources (with the exception of OPEC).

Will civs conquer other civs because they share the same corporation? Even if they are friendly with eachother?

 

[sheep21]

Right, that is why the EU is a civ as well.

oops heheheh

 

[Bahmo]

No sir, I don't like it! Largely because trade agreements can be acomplished through diplomacy. It also is easy enough to add new corporations--though I don't know how. Corporations are very essential to replicating the real state of the world, and why certain countries like America, China, and Japan have such healthy economies. We cannot do away with that.

 

[DVS]

Then how can we represent trade agreements? Certainly these play a larger part in the global economy than do individual corporations. I've never really like civ's corporation system... it's way too limited.

And how can we justify only allowing 7 corporations in a world with 40 countries? I guess we could give one to each of the G7 nations, but that would really stack the deck for the EU (3 G7 nations without the UK). Maybe G7, with only one for the EU, plus one for China and one for Russia? But this hamstrings smaller countries... they have no chance of competing.

Anyway I still like my idea, unless someone can tell me how 7 corps in the world is realistic, without allowing smaller nations a chance at starting their own corp.

 

[sheep21]

to be fair, alot of the smaller countries have no way of competeing with the G7 in the realworld.

 

[Bahmo]

Then how can we represent trade agreements?

Diplomacy, as I mentioned. It's possible to enter trade agreements in the worldbuilder. You also cannot truly replicate the real system of trade agreements without corporations that pushed them through.

And how can we justify only allowing 7 corporations in a world with 40 countries? I guess we could give one to each of the G7 nations, but that would really stack the deck for the EU (3 G7 nations without the UK). Maybe G7, with only one for the EU, plus one for China and one for Russia? But this hamstrings smaller countries... they have no chance of competing.

As I've said, I think you can have more than 7 Corporations, with some modding. I don't know how to do it, but I think it can be done. I'll do some research to back this up.

 

[whitelaughter]

Then how can we represent trade agreements? Certainly these play a larger part in the global economy than do individual corporations. I've never really like civ's corporation system... it's way too limited.

And how can we justify only allowing 7 corporations in a world with 40 countries?

Good questions - have some good answers.

For starters, at game start, all nations will have existing diplomatic relations; hundreds of turns of 'our open border draw us closer together', ''you have supplied us with resources" etc.
This should be easy to code. If it isn't, then 'play' the game from about AD 1700 to create the links and then make the save game at 2009 the actual module.

Now, sure Corporations are powerful. But so are multiple other things. Wonders: Frex, Saudi Arabia has the The Masjid Al-Haram, (and should have permanent Open Borders with the rest of the Islamic world).

Great People: Many cities will have attached GPs, frex London would have several Great Merchants, Paris some great Artists.

Resources/City Improvements: Europe would be pretty much stripped bare of mineral resources, in part because the continent is so well developed. Nations that aren't well developed will have more resources.

Lush terrain - Indonesia would have none of the above, but is a major player because they will have so many Grassland/Floodplain tiles, allowing them to draft 3 units a turn for the entire game, and still be able to whip if they feel like it, or just have huge cities if they don't.

Empty space - the Steppes have been Russia's primary defence for centuries. Although empty and useless, they make a fine defence, especially with an army of mobile units. So Russia, Ukraine, Mongolia etc should all be built around being unassailable due to terrain.

Technologies: again not equal, and sometimes nations won't *want* higher techs, as they make units more expensive.

Another option, that may be harder to code:
Can some nations be playing a OCC while others aren't? Because it makes sense for Israel and Singapore to be playing a single city challenge: giving them the ability to put more World Wonders in Jerusalem/Singapore respectively. If so, then any small nation has this as a leveller.

 

[whitelaughter]

The EU binds us in europe so close together that we would never go to war with each other again.

Hmm, wasn't that supposed to be dynamite? Nobel insisted that dynamite made future war was impossible. Or then, WWI was declared (after the event) to be 'the war to end all wars' and that war would never threaten Europe again....

Granted it wasn't within the EU, but Russia vs Georgia earlier this year? It's only a matter of time before Croatia and Serbia go each other again. Then there's all the old grudges going back centuries.
And even if the EU turns Europe into a single country - civil wars are common.

 

[sheep21]

there hasnt been a war in western europe for 60 years the longest period of peace in Europes history since the Roman Empire. The EU has bound us all so close together that it would be counter productive for any eu state to declare war on another eu state through trade (the UK does most of its trade with other EU members), Law * strong Political Institutions.
The two examples of wars in Europe you give have happened in countries outside of the EU and even the NATO frameworks.

EDIT: Re: Europe stripped Bare

Europe has large reserves of Coal, Iron Ore, Copper, salt, nickel, bauxite, timber, lead, aswell as substantial reserves of Natural Gas and Crude Oil, Uranium throughout the EU, Aluminium is Russia and many more I canne be buggered to list. Oh, EU total steel production in the year 2007 was 210.3 million tonnes.

 

[Lord Wolf]

RE: whitelaughter

I think you can't really compare that! It is like supposing that America would break in two parts and beginn a second secession-war or Great Britain would try to overtake one of his former colonies, like Australia. Like sheep21 said, the last 60 years were the longest lasting peace period the continent has ever experienced, accompanied by an unpredecented economical boom and wealth for a very large part of the population. Today it is completely impossible that one EU contry declares war on another and - with all due respect - I think only europeans can really judge that properly. Non EU-countries are another thing, but that's the reason why Brussels wants to integrate them quickly - to avoid other wars.

Now back to topic: In my opinion Corporations are a very important part of the modern world and should also be represented in the game. With them it will be much easier to show the economic differences and dependences between poor and richt countries. I also strongly support an corporation which exists in all western countries and offers Oil for a quiet big amount of money! It would be great if it was possible to connect the productiveness of factories or power plants to a certain degree with Oil. Because we all know how much our economy depends on Oil. Naturally you can also build new power plants or factories which work without oil.

I think Trade Agreements should be inserted by using strong diplomatic connections (boni), open borders and already existent trade agreements.


I hope my considerations are interesting for somebody!

greets Ben

 

[whitelaughter]

RE: whitelaughter

I think you can't really compare that! It is like supposing that America would break in two parts and beginn a second secession-war or Great Britain would try to overtake one of his former colonies, like Australia. Like sheep21 said, the last 60 years were the longest lasting peace period the continent has ever experienced, accompanied by an unpredecented economical boom and wealth for a very large part of the population. Today it is completely impossible that one EU contry declares war on another and - with all due respect - I think only europeans can really judge that properly. Non EU-countries are another thing, but that's the reason why Brussels wants to integrate them quickly - to avoid other wars.

America breaking in two parts is unthinkable? It did happen, and the North and South are still distinct (and often hostile) regions.
France and Russia have both tried to re-establish their influence in lost colonies, and Portugal would if they had the resources.

Yes, Europe looks in peaceful.
In 1936, British military doctrine was that there would not be a European War during the next decade.
This '60 years of peace' was a mix of a (nuclear) stand off that lasted for 45 years plus everybody's troops losing wars in the colonies. And despite this, still having regular uprisings against the Communists in the East, unrest in Ireland and the Basque regions, civil wars in Italy and Greece, the 1968 riots, and so on.

I really, really, really hope you guys are right. But frankly, the peace in our time claim has been proved wrong far to often to be taken seriously.

Now back to topic: In my opinion Corporations are a very important part of the modern world and should also be represented in the game. With them it will be much easier to show the economic differences and dependences between poor and richt countries.

Agreed.

I also strongly support an corporation which exists in all western countries and offers Oil for a quiet big amount of money! It would be great if it was possible to connect the productiveness of factories or power plants to a certain degree with Oil. Because we all know how much our economy depends on Oil. Naturally you can also build new power plants or factories which work without oil.

By 'offer oil' you mean (to use the game term) consumes Oil, yes?

Not knowing the game 'under the hood', I can't comment on coding, but perhaps the way to handle this is to have a single company that Consumes Oil and in return offers multiple other resources, which are then used by other Corporations. This would emphasise how Oil acts as basic commodity. The power of the Corporation could be balanced by also having it produce

I think Trade Agreements should be inserted by using strong diplomatic connections (boni), open borders and already existent trade agreements.

[nods] NATO etc could be reflected by the simple move of having member states begin the game with Defensive Pacts, the EU by long term Open Borders and Trade Agreements.

I hope my considerations are interesting for somebody!

Most definitely!