COTM 27 Pre-Game discussion

[Kulko]

@ azzaman, you are in .

 

[Shogun Bonez]

I almost think that nw would be optimal start place while 2 sw on other side of lake be good 2nd city. City 1 does a warrior, settler, granary, city 2 can do 2 warriors settler granary and you should have 2 settler pump or 1 settler pump 1 worker pump to get a good jump, and with overlapping tiles to share as they (hopefully) alternate population/laborers. I normally find that in deity, most aggressive ai or not.... they will leave you alone as long as u give into their demands, keep a low bank for teching all out and having little to hand over when (not if) they start asking for appeasements. If you try to buy techs, u will find other civs asking for gold, and u handing it over or them handing you a war u can't win early. If you can get 15 cities and a republic at or near forbidden palace completion, you will be set to catch up on techs. The key here is getting Riders before they get muskets. And the moment you get rider's u need to kick the crap out of 1 or 2 civs to make up for the rapid expansion they will have in the beginning. Thank god for that cow, otherwise agri civs would claim the whole continent before we can get 6 cities.

 

[fat-mans-reveng]

I don't intend on doing a slingshot. Getting republic with it is very unlikely and getting any other tech is questionable and hardly worth the effort. I'd rather prepare for war, save money and mainly buy or pointy stick my ancient age research.

Blast your unflawed logic!

I guess a literature slingshot is far more likely, and even then it may be a difficult venture. I think a fast stack of archers would be a good method for keeping those agressive AIs out of my lands, and maybe I could tackle a nearby city or two with them. Does this seem viable? Or does a sword stack seem more reasonable?

Ansar, Azzaman, the challenge is set, may the best player win... Or at least live the longest.

Can't wait!

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

One thing I like doing is go for CoL with philo. Experience taught me I could get away with it on a good enough start; this would probably qualify if I have a second high food city... and it brings us several milestones closer to Republic. Without libs however the trek is longer, so I have to beg for more experienced feedback on here: would it be faster, with a lib prebuild or two, to go lit with philo?

 

[Redbad]

Theoretically yes. Republic on a standard map at demigod level takes 960 beakers. CoL needs 342 beakers and libraries amplify research by half. As Republic is more then twice the beakers of CoL you can research CoL + Republic faster with libraries then researching only Republic without libraries.

But that’s theoretically. In practice you won’t have libraries in every city and there’s corruption to consider also. But the main problem is of course the enormous costs of building those libraries so early. It will seriously jeopardise your much needed military, the much needed settlers and the much needed workers. Building those libraries will leave you smaller then you would be without building them. So the libraries won’t increase your beakers with 50%.

If you really are aiming to get to Republic asap, then my advice would be:
Research alphabet, writing, philosophy (get free CoL) and republic. All research at max. Buy alphabet as soon as you can and don’t sell writing before nearly finished on philosophy. And while doing all this research: grow, grow, grow. So emphasise food and commerce and build warriors, workers and settlers and possibly 1 or 2 granaries.

And... realise there's still a real possibility you have to research CoL too.

 

[Redbad]

I think a fast stack of archers would be a good method for keeping those agressive AIs out of my lands, and maybe I could tackle a nearby city or two with them. Does this seem viable? Or does a sword stack seem more reasonable?

It's certainly viable, but not really optimal. We are chinese and the ocean is only 60%. So kicking ass with horsies would be my choice

 

[AutomatedTeller]

you can also try the Philosophy Gambit - go writing/Philo and hope you can trade for CoL - AI's will tend to go for that before Philo, though it's not something that always happens.

And, of course, you could just go minimum and set 1 city on a palace pre-build for the GLib and get Republic that way, saving all your money for a mass horseman to rider upgrade and sweep all available land.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

Yeah, I just didn't rationalize the 340 vs 960. Lib costs do play a big role though. I guess it would be very very worthwhile on large/huge maps where corruption is a lesser factor and costs are even higher. Not much on standard though. Thanks bearded one.

 

[Abegweit]

A free tech is a free tech and I am certainly not going to pass up the chance for one. I've pulled off a Republic slingshot at demi before. It's unlikely when you don't start with Alphabet so I'll simply make a beeline for Philo and take the most expensive monopoly tech I can get. Who knows? It might be Republic. In any case, 342 is not as good as 960 but it's still a helluva lot better than nothing. And 480, or whatever the cost of Construction is, is better than 342.

If lit is the best thing out there, take it. But don't build libraries in the early game. Soldiers have a better ROI.

Edit: my beeline might involve pottery (for granaries) and math (for trading) but if I think I have a reasonable chance at Philo after Writing, I am certainly going for it. Why wouldn't I? It's the best choice at this point. The AI doesn't go for it, meaning that you have a decent shot at a monopoly. It gives a free tech. And it's on the road to republic. What's not to like about it?

 

[Abegweit]

And, of course, you could just go minimum and set 1 city on a palace pre-build for the GLib and get Republic that way, saving all your money for a mass horseman to rider upgrade and sweep all available land.

Don't go minimum. Don't go upgrade. Don't go GLib. This is not vanilla and it is not SID. Building horsies is fine. But don't stockpile them. Use 'em.

 

[archphoenix]

revise my guess.
this is useful information:

Conquest-Class Bonuses:
Start with a bonus worker, settler and two spearman.

two spear!, so there must AI nearby.

Spoiler 1:
......
Requires that you have a full-view of the starting continent.

so I guess We land on a fairly small continent but not so small like the carthage island last month, with 1-2 AIs , and maybe other 5-6 rivals on a large continents or share other two continents.

 

[F-86 Sabre]

Just out of curiosity, anybody gonna play Conquest-Class?

I will. I've never played on D-G level and need all the help I can get.

 

[F-86 Sabre]

Well I was going to issue my own Pacifist Challenge

I'm definitely going to war this time out, but for future reference, what are the exact terms? I might take you up on it next month.

 

[F-86 Sabre]

Blast your unflawed logic!

I think a fast stack of archers would be a good method for keeping those agressive AIs out of my lands, and maybe I could tackle a nearby city or two with them. Does this seem viable?
Can't wait!

I'm giving some serious thought to an archer rush, myself.

 

[Marsden]

Would we better making warriors or archers from the begining? I'm not used to having a choice between the two at the begining.

 

[Ansar]

warriors for MP.

find horses.

Conquer the world with horsies (riders preferrably. )

 

[Più Freddo]

Would we better making warriors or archers from the begining? I'm not used to having a choice between the two at the begining.

Basically, Warriors before the Barracks and Archers after.

From another perspective, it's not Warriors or Archers, but Settlers or Archers. You tend to use Archers if you don't use Settlers in the early phases. The use of Warriors is less dependent on the honouring of a Warrior Code.

The use of Archers when both Iron and Horses are missing I assume is not covered by the question.

In this game I hope to build a Granary in the capital and the Barracks only later. So build order something like Warrior-Warrior-Granary-Settler-Barracks, then operate as a 6x10-Shield Combo Factory. In the beginning a mix of Warriors and Archers, then depending on the Strategic Resource situation either Horsemen, Swordsmen or 3 Warriors for the thirty shields. If we are boxed in early on, this plan fails and we must start with the Barracks and just pour out Archers, nothing else.

At low difficulty levels you ususally never need Archers unless you decide to go for a Rush. The basics apply: Barracks before Archers, either Settlers or Archers.

 

[Più Freddo]

With three beegees and the moo, we can do the very versatile 6x10 shield combo factory

Just back from a little holiday trip, and seeing that the first spoiler thread is already out I'm obviously a little late here.

Downloaded the save (open) yesterday but was too tired to dare open it, which appears to have been just the right decision. I also bought Warlords and haven't even installed it yet. We'll see if I'll have time to finish this one.

Looking at the picture today and comparing with the comments I'm surprised that no one pointed out (saw?) that the Cattle is on a Bonus Grassland! That gray spot is not the udder! I even saw a suggestion to mine the Cattle -- that's useless under Despotism.

So we'd need only two mined Bonus Grassland tiles, or equivalents such as Oasis and Sugar Plains, and two Plains tiles, one irrigated and one mined, together with the Cattle and Lake tiles to complete our 6x10 4.8-6.8 Combo Factory. Don't look any further, I'll certainly settle in place. (Unless Worker N reveals another surplus food.)

 

[Taxpayer'sMoney]

I'm definitely going to war this time out, but for future reference, what are the exact terms? I might take you up on it next month.

Well I'm not really sure. PaperBeetle suggested I might try:http://realmsbeyond.net/civ/etactics.html
to set the terms and conditions but I had a look and it looks terribly complicated.

My real motivation for a Pacifist Challenge was to simply offer a challenge for a non-military VC, mainly because I'm no good at war (or anything else for that matter, but that's a different story). But the rules should probably be something like:
1) Agree a non-military VC to go for, and any specified variant (like a five city challenge)
2) Never declare war, unless attacked first.
3) Accept peace as soon as it is offered by the AI.
4) Cannot join alliances or military protection pacts with any waring civs, as this would put you at war with a civ that has not directly attacked you (it's OK to join alliances/MPPs in peacetime).

What do you reckon?

 

[Ansar]

I'm sorry to the other Open Survival/Domination challenge players, but I need to drop out. School is starting on monday and I wont have time to play. Unfortunately, I also realized, I have much to learn before moving on to Demigod level. Sorry all, maybe in a later GOTM/COTM.