Could Early Heroes Upgrade?

[Brokenbone]

*delete unit*

*build Shrine of the Champion*

*resurrect with Sphener or a Life III Archmage*

Just kidding, but if people were looking for a "free promos" method and an "unretirement", there you go.

...

Back on the main point, I'm not much for the idea of letting early heroes upgrade beyond the boatload of XP they should hopefully have by the time their later game competitors come to the field... or beyond their purchase of things like fancy bows or armor or other stuff at "Master" buildings (or having them pick up every worthwhile piece of funky equipment your forces find in the field like in dungeons or from other civs... Orthus's Axe, Scorched Staff, heart amulet, other stuff). Heroes come along and have a role to play when they come along, Rantine for instance is supposed to convert the plentiful barb cities of the early game, or help with early rush strategies. Late game, he just probably looks like a well promoted champion, which you'll find hordes of in all civs. *shrugs*

The main civ with flexible heroes is the Grigori, mold "Carrow the Hunted" or "Panulplan" or whoever else pops for you, into your favourite line, and keep them jumping up the tiers all game long if you've got the gold. Just a couple of quick thoughts is all.

 

[Onionsoilder]

I disagree with upgrading Heroes. Take Bambur for example. He started out with 5 strength. Bronze Weapons gives him 6 strength, so with Axemen he's generally 1 strength higher. Once Champions come along, they get another strength and Iron, which Bambur also gets, so they are equal in terms of power. However, by this point Bambur will likely have Heroic Strength/Defense 1 & 2, giving him an additional two strength over champions, while new heros won't have this ability.

To me, the Heroic promotions are the way Heroes are supposed to not be obsolete. I wouldn't mind letting all heroes use Weapons promotions, but I would rather them not upgrade. In addition, if you ever do get to the point were a hero is completely worthless. Bambur never really obsoletes, because while Immortals and Phalanxes are much stronger, you can only have 4 of each, so Bambur still remains stronger than your Champions.

My philosophy is this: If you want upgradable heroes, go play Grigori.

 

[Swinkscalibur]

I guess I come back to the point that an "upgrade" does not have to mean direct strength. As has been mentioned there are other flavorful and strategic options that can mean your hero doesn't get relegated to backwater city defense or some other less than heroic duty. Heroes should at least have the option of being either directly involved in frontline activity whether on offence or defense through most of the game or retiring in some flavorful way from direct battle.

Just my two cents

 

[Solanus]

If the early-game heroes can't normally upgrade (tech + gold only) into higher tier heroes (which I'm coming around to agreeing with), then give them available promotions that allow them to simulate the same additional abilities that higher tier standard units of the same type can get. The comparisons made of saying that a hero, after taking both Heroic Strength and Defense promotions, is the equal of a T3 standard unit, actually seem to make my point.

For Gilden to have the same base Attack/Defense values as a Longbowman, he has to use all of his free promotions on Combat I-V, Heroic Strength I-II, and Heroic Defense I-II. He hasn't improved his ranged attack strength or damage cap, his free strikes, or his city defense, never mind any of the things that would make him more unique from Longbowmen. The one thing that he has better than a plain-Jane Longbowman is Combat I-V, which is nothing to sneeze at, but that is easily matched with iron weapons, the starting XP from basic sources (Apprenticeship, for one), and those from the first couple of real fights that a Longbowman gets in.

Iron weapons are not a stretch at this point in the game. The equipment available at Master Fletchers goes both ways, although as always, spreading out the gold across all of your Longbowmen might not be as useful as pouring it all into Gilden (or into just a single Longbowman); same with any special equipment you find. And he's still behind in the other areas.

Spending 4 full promotions to get +2 overall strength is IMO really wasteful, but for balance reasons, it may be the precedent for the number of promotions necessary to replicate type improvements for an early-game hero. Maybe another 2-3 promotions later, and Gilden is a heroic Longbowman vs. a heroic Archer. Another 6-8 later (now 18th-21st level) and he's finally a Marksman, without looking at the movement, vs. type, and other bonuses that he gave up along the way to get there. I don't agree that it should take that many promotions to get there, but that's how it could be done.

Yes, I am more likely to put my eggs into my few hero baskets, and they will be better in the end than their standard kin. But with all of those level-ups, if I want to have my hero be able to do something that a standard unit can do, I should be able to get there, even if I have to burn through a few promotions to do it.

One last thing: when someone asks the question on how to make a particular Civ (or portion of that Civ) play better, saying "Play a different Civ" is not a good answer. Sure, I've played the Grigori -- they're lots of fun, but they're not the problem.

 

[readercolin]

How about having a promotion for gilden available once longbows have been discovered that allows him to use metal weapons. Similar promotions can be given to other hero's of a similar type. Personally however, unless the hero is a t4 unit (Eurbrates, magnidine, etc.), I don't really think any hero should be able to better a t4 unit - match it, maybe.

Also, what about changing Valor from the law 3 spell to something that only hero's can cast, and make it a permanent spell (note, all hero's, including religious would be able to cast it). After all, valor is probably something much more likely to be applied by a hero than some foolish mage, right? And the ability for religious hero's to cast it means that even civs with lategame heros (hippus, kurotaes, etc) can still get a unit to cast it.

-Colin

 

[xienwolf]

It sounds like people may not be amiss to early Heroes gaining special capabilities later in the game, just be careful not to call it an upgrade Lots of the later heroes have some fairly awesome mechanic linked to them (Dragon Roar, Auto-raze forests, take over a Civ...), so it could be nice to grant some unique capability late in the tech tree to a few of the early heroes who are essentially just a stronger basic unit when they first start out. So maybe Bambur learns some Divine spells eventually, or Saverous becomes a Commander, or Lucian is able to use Drafting abilities near enemy cities. The unit is still just the same unit with the stats/XP from before, but now with a special ability which they had to stay alive long enough to gain.

 

[Valkrionn]

A special ability at some late tech/level would be nice, actually.

I have to agree however, that an upgrade would be incredibly hard to balance without giving downgrades to later heroes, which would make everything the same... I'd like to avoid that. Korinna is a special case, I think, seeing as she was designed that way from the beginning...

 

[civ_king]

If you could dominate Saverous as Order he should turn Awesome commanderesque

 

[Master176281]

Maybe it is possible to link a late promotion for early heroes with the age of the unit?

So a hero at the age of maybe 300 can obtain a promotion like "Insert promotion name here" which is not accessible so early for later heros.

Or maybe better to allow the promotion only before Turn 200-300 depending on speed of course.
That would exclude later heroes automatically.