Creative Construction FTW

[vormuir]

This has just become my favorite corporation.

Yah, Sid's Sushi, bla bla bla. But Creative Con is IMO better for the sort of fast Domination win that most of us end up chasing.

You can get it early, because it's unlocked by a tech that's almost always a priority.

It gives a mix of hammers and Culture, which are the two things you want in a newly captured city. I just finished a Domination win where CC shaved a good 20 turns off the victory. As my Stack of Doom moved through Stalin's empire I made sure it was carrying a bunch of CC executives in the baggage train. CC + Free Speech + Broadway = first border pop as soon as a captured city was out of anarchy, second border pop just /three turns later/. I never saw a map turn my color so fast before.

It also inoculates against Mining Inc, which is about the only corporation the AI can sort of handle well. And I assume it's pretty handy for Cultural victories, though I haven't tried one with it yet.

Is it just me, or does anyone else love this company too?


Waldo

 

[Shurdus]

I think it is meh-ish. I can see it becoming handy for a cultural win, but that would be it really. I disagree about the need for hammers in newly captured cities.

I am unsure about that map size we are talking about, because I can see the new cities becoming more important on large maps where supply lines are longer, but in general I think the main part of your research and hammers and such will come from your own core cities anyway. Captured cities tend to be sub-par, border pops or no.

Maybe I am being overly harsh, but I have yet to see a demonstration of this technique of uber border-popping in newly captured cities being worth the hammer investment of the executives.

 

[J-man]

Why not use Mining Inc and Sid's Sushi? You get the culture more hammers and you get extra food. and

 

[Huaojozu]

Why not use Mining Inc and Sid's Sushi? You get the culture more hammers and you get extra food. and

...and more maintenance.

 

[Fleme]

...and more maintenance.

Like you're ever short on money when you have 2 corporations in a Wall Street city.

 

[Shurdus]

...and more maintenance.

Wall street city + HQ of both Sushi and Mining in that city = laughing at maintenance. Plus it gets you hammers and food.

Food gives you more flexibility than just culture because you can always use the food for getting specialists or growing more. It does however require more GP's and a bigger hammer investment to spread two corps. instead of just one.

All in all I am sure you can get the culture corp. to good use, but in top levels of play I have yet to see an effective demonstration of picking the creative corp. over sushi or mining.

 

[vormuir]

Why not use Mining Inc and Sid's Sushi? You get the culture more hammers and you get extra food.

Because it's not really fair to compare one corporation to two?

If you've got both the GPs and the techs to found Mining and Sid's before anyone else does, wonderful. But that's not always going to be the case.


Waldo

 

[Shurdus]

Because it's not really fair to compare one corporation to two?

If you've got both the GPs and the techs to found Mining and Sid's before anyone else does, wonderful. But that's not always going to be the case.


Waldo

Agreed, comparing one copr to two is a bit much and unfair. One can only expect so much from a corp, it is not going to cook you breakfast.

Then again, suppose you had or can expect to get the GP to found either CC or MI and SS... Would you still prefer CC over the other two? Can you elaborate why you would argue one way or the other?

 

[vormuir]

I disagree about the need for hammers in newly captured cities.

Hm. Courthouses and harbors and markets, to keep them from dragging down your economy; happy-making buildings so their populations don't implode from unhappiness; religious buildings if you have the University of Sankore or the Spiral Minaret; forges and barracks if they're going to contribute units... I find I'm always scrambling for hammers in new conquests. YMMV.

general I think the main part of your research and hammers and such will come from your own core cities anyway. Captured cities tend to be sub-par, border pops or no.

Sure. But if you're going for a Dom win, the border pops are what you must have.

Maybe I am being overly harsh, but I have yet to see a demonstration of this technique of uber border-popping in newly captured cities being worth the hammer investment of the executives.

Well, as I said, in my latest game CC probably shaved 20 turns off my win time. It was Epic speed, normal size, and a Fractal map that was more or less a Pangaea -- all seven civs on a single continent plus a few distant islands.

Let's do the math: I was running Free Speech and had built the Eiffel Tower, so my culture output was tripled. Bringing a missionary along would get me 3 culture/turn, so a border pop in 5 turns. But unless I managed to get some culture buildings built, I'd have to wait forty! five! more turns for the second pop.

To get the second pop in a reasonable period of time, say less than 20 turns, my first build would have to be a Theater, followed by running a Great Artist for a bit. I think we can agree this is suboptimal from a military or economic POV; I'd rather be building a Courthouse or Forge or Barracks or some such.

I'm liking CC because it gives me fast, fast border pops /and/ a hit of hammers. For a Dom win, I think this is better than just having one or the other.

As to the cost of the executive, he pays for himself pretty quickly -- not only in terms of hammers produced in the new city, but also in terms of hammers not spent on a Theater, extra hammers gained from mines and forests in the second border pop, and hammers not lost when the enemy is unable to attack your new city because its borders are popping too fast and/or when his movements are hampered because your cultural boundaries are expanding. It seems a pretty good deal to me. Again, YMMV.

Final thought: I would have won that game just fine with any other corporation, or none. But CC helped me win it faster.


Waldo

 

[JammerUno]

For a late game domination, I don't need production in my newly aquired cities, I just need culture, and sushi will do that just as well as CC. I've regularly gotten up to 25 cpt with sushi, 6 turns till the second pop, that's pretty fast.

PS. You don't really need two borderpops, just the one will usually claim 90% of the AI territory.

 

[vormuir]

Then again, suppose you had or can expect to get the GP to found either CC or MI and SS... Would you still prefer CC over the other two? Can you elaborate why you would argue one way or the other?

Well, in addition to the stuff mentioned above, there's also the enabling tech. CC requires Combustion, which is a high-priority technology in almost every game. Mining Inc. needs Mass Media, which usually comes a lot later. No, not always -- you can beeline Mass Media -- but usually.

MM just isn't that interesting unless you're chasing a Diplomatic win (or trying to shut down someone else's Apostolic Palace). It's a dead-end technology that doesn't even lead to Future Tech. Combustion, OTOH, is crucial. Unless you've settled down to an unusually peaceful endgame, you're going to want the option of building Tanks and Battleships and Bombers. And unless you're climbing the tech tree in a very weird way -- Radio before Railroad, which is possible, but pretty strange -- you're going to unlock Combustion long before Mass Media.

So that's another reason to prefer CC to Mining: you'll probably be able to deploy it tens of turns earlier.


Waldo

 

[Feyaria]

Civilized Jewelers needs Mass Media.

Mining Inc needs Raildroad and thats one tech earlier then Combustion for Creative Constructions. Mining and Sushi are the most popular corps because these two are the first you can get.

On some maps you get more food with Ceral Mills then with Sids Sushi (and you wont starve when your fishing boots get plundered in a war). In such a case, i prefer CC myself, if I spread 2 corps, i want one of them giving some culture.

 

[Killroyan]

One of the things that is in favor of creative construction is the fact that you don't have to pay for 2 executives. 120 gold or something per executive is quite expensive too.

 

[Shurdus]

Well, in addition to the stuff mentioned above, there's also the enabling tech. CC requires Combustion, which is a high-priority technology in almost every game. Mining Inc. needs Mass Media, which usually comes a lot later. No, not always -- you can beeline Mass Media -- but usually.

MM just isn't that interesting unless you're chasing a Diplomatic win (or trying to shut down someone else's Apostolic Palace). It's a dead-end technology that doesn't even lead to Future Tech. Combustion, OTOH, is crucial. Unless you've settled down to an unusually peaceful endgame, you're going to want the option of building Tanks and Battleships and Bombers. And unless you're climbing the tech tree in a very weird way -- Radio before Railroad, which is possible, but pretty strange -- you're going to unlock Combustion long before Mass Media.

So that's another reason to prefer CC to Mining: you'll probably be able to deploy it tens of turns earlier.


Waldo

Indeed, the points you are making - and that were not coming across in my thick skull - are now really coming through. There is something to say for your point of view for sure.

I have no idea what YMMV means, the only thing I can come up with is 'you make me vomit' but I guess that must not be it.

 

[Learningciv]

This has just become my favorite corporation.

Yah, Sid's Sushi, bla bla bla. But Creative Con is IMO better for the sort of fast Domination win that most of us end up chasing.

Not to nitpick but a fast domination happens well before liberilism, let alone corps

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Mining is way better for hammers than createcon.

However, the latter is a top culture corp just after sushi/jewelers. It also doesn't compete with sushi, so if someone takes mining it's better than nothing for hammers.

Generally you want mining however.

 

[UncleJJ]

I agree with the OP, at least in theory since I haven't used CC myself for a domination win. But I have used Sushi and Mining both separately and together and both have serious flaws.

Sushi provides a lot of culture and food but is expensive and the problem with food is that it can be difficult to use in a short time. Both the food corps suffer from "turbo lag", like a turbo boosted engine. They give great output but it takes time to get up to speed and for them to pay off. That means in most of the captured cities it is used in at the end of the game never do anything worthwhile with Sushi apart from generate culture.

Mining is great but it only provides hammers so most often on marathon I spend the first 3 turns building culture to pop the borders so the city doesn't starve too badly. On marathon it takes 30 turns for a religion (alone) to pop the borders and that can be much too slow in the late game when a city can be captured every 2 turns (with cavalry, paratroops and aircraft)

That means that CC sounds just what I want providing a combination of culture and hammers. I will definitely be trying this if I get a GE at that time in a domination push. I usually go straight from Railroad to Combustion anyway so there won't be much of a delay in spreading the corp.

 

[UncleJJ]

Not to nitpick but a fast domination happens well before liberilism, let alone corps

only on Pangea, try playing a map that needs ships

 

[Antilogic]

only on Pangea, try playing a map that needs ships

Yeah, all you need is Astronomy.

 

[vormuir]

Okay, maybe not "fast" exactly. Pre-spaceflight let's say.


Waldo