Creek Indian Reservation

[onejayhawk]

Lost in the fuss over Trump's financial records, we have what appearss to be a far reaching SCOTUS decision. The land involved is roughly the size of Indiana, include the state's second largest city, Tulsa, and major oil and gas deposits.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/19pdf/18-9526_9okb.pdf

 

[abradley]

The case decided the Supreme Court focused on whether, Jimcy McGirt, should have been tried in a federal court because he is Native American and the crime was committed on land that was part of the historical Creek reservation.

https://oklahoman.com/article/5666401/us-supreme-court-rules-against-oklahoma-in-creek-nation-case

 

[Berzerker]

CHOP takes over half of Oklahoma!

 

[EnglishEdward]

Lost in the fuss over Trump's financial records, we have what appearss to be a far reaching SCOTUS decision. The land involved is roughly the size of Indiana, include the state's second largest city, Tulsa, and major oil and gas deposits.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/19pdf/18-9526_9okb.pdf

That is a right humdinger of a decision.

The case focused on whether Jimcy McGirt should have been tried in a federal court because
he is Native American and the crime was committed on land that was part of the historical Creek reservation.

So let us suppose a very similar crime was committed in the same place by a non native American. Which court has jurisdiction?

 

[Birdjaguar]

That is a right humdinger of a decision.



So let us suppose a very similar crime was committed in the same place by a non native American. Which court has jurisdiction?

In NM when non Indians commit crimes on Indian Land, they hand the person over to the local non Indian authorities.

 

[innonimatu]

It'll be interesting if it does extend beyond criminal justice...

 

[EnglishEdward]

In NM when non Indians commit crimes on Indian Land, they hand the person over to the local non Indian authorities.

Thank you for informing me of that.

I can not help thinking of England in the middle ages.

If people were caught commiting a crime, they would claim some link to the church and therefore
for the right to be tried by church judges because the church was more lenient than the state.
There was also a time, when in England, peers of the realm, members of the House of Lords
could elect to be tried by the House of Lords rather than in the common law criminal courts.

In general I do not believe that the particular set of laws and application of justice applicable
to a person accused of crimes in a particular place should vary on a hereditary basis.

 

[Arwon]

Thank you for informing me of that.

I can not help thinking of England in the middle ages.

If people were caught commiting a crime, they would claim some link to the church and therefore
for the right to be tried by church judges because the church was more lenient than the state.
There was also a time, when in England, peers of the realm, members of the House of Lords
could elect to be tried by the House of Lords rather than in the common law criminal courts.

In general I do not believe that the particular set of laws and application of justice applicable
to a person accused of crimes in a particular place should vary on a hereditary basis.

It is more akin to a question of citizenship tbh. This is more a question of where the partial sovereignty of Native American nations extends to.

 

[emzie]

The Supreme Court said Thursday that a large swath of eastern Oklahoma remains an American Indian reservation, a decision with potential implications for nearly 2 million residents and one of the most significant victories for tribal rights in years.
...
In a 5-to-4 decision invoking the country’s long history of mistreating Native Americans, the court said “we hold the government to its word” and the land Congress promised to the Creek Nation is still Indian land.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...dc42d4-c1e2-11ea-9fdd-b7ac6b051dc8_story.html

I'm ashamed I hadn't even realized a case of this importance was before this term of the court. Between this and his LGBT ruling last month, I might not agree with Gorsuch most of the time, but when I do it brings me to tears. I will always resent that his seat was stolen. But that a 45 appointee is forcing the government to live up to its obligations to all citizens makes me a bit proud of my birthland.

 

[Berzerker]

In NM when non Indians commit crimes on Indian Land, they hand the person over to the local non Indian authorities.

hmm... I wonder if the tribe is more lenient on their own

 

[Birdjaguar]

hmm... I wonder if the tribe is more lenient on their own

They can be harsher, but typically they offer more appropriate responses that are suited to the person and their situation. Tribes don't have prison systems so that kind of response is not likely if they choose to take jurisdiction.

 

[Zardnaar]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...dc42d4-c1e2-11ea-9fdd-b7ac6b051dc8_story.html

I'm ashamed I hadn't even realized a case of this importance was before this term of the court. Between this and his LGBT ruling last month, I might not agree with Gorsuch most of the time, but when I do it brings me to tears. I will always resent that his seat was stolen. But that a 45 appointee is forcing the government to live up to its obligations to all citizens makes me a bit proud of my birthland.

It's the second time Gorsuch has sided with Native Americans.

He seems to be a very letter of the law type so if they can present documents supporting their claims he goes with it.

A deals a deal type.

 

[EnglishEdward]

It is more akin to a question of citizenship tbh. This is more a question of where the partial sovereignty of Native American nations extends to.

Yes, I understand the logic of the decision.

But I don't approve, it defeats the principle of
people being equal before the law; if some
people can choose which law applies to them.

 

[Gorbles]

People weren't equal before the law prior to this, so I'd love to hear of a better solution, EnglishEdward.

 

[Arwon]

Yes, I understand the logic of the decision.

But I don't approve, it defeats the principle of
people being equal before the law; if some
people can choose which law applies to them.

Things are different in federations and settler colonies

 

[EnglishEdward]

People weren't equal before the law prior to this, so I'd love to hear of a better solution, EnglishEdward.

The fact that the principle of people being equal before the law may be incompletely applied in law
and often not applied in practice does not mean that the princple does not exist and ought not to apply.

Things are different in federations and settler colonies

Yes, we have noticed EU officials having exemption from member state law, members of UA armed forces
benefiting from treaties exempting them from local law, and settlers ignored the rights of indigenous populations.


A point I wonder is did they claim that Creek law should apply on being arrested or at their first trial.

If not, it seems a rum situation in Oklahoma. Accused people there may have understood
that state law applied and accepted it hoping for an acquital or failing that a light
sentence, but when they fail to get acquited and get a heavy (even a death) sentence,
one particular subset of the convicted get a second chance based purely on
hereditary e.g. racial gounds, to have their conviction conveniently overturned.

I do not know what will happen there, but if significant numbers of people
found guilty by juries and sentenced for serious crimes are able to use this
ruling to walk free, consequent problems may result in SCOTUS rueing its decision.

Does SCOTUS similarly recognise that Australian law applies to
Australians doing things in Australia?

 

[Wastl]

Yes, I understand the logic of the decision.

But I don't approve, it defeats the principle of
people being equal before the law; if some
people can choose which law applies to them.

It does no such thing. In fact, it specifically adheres to the law, which was ignored before.
It is not in the jurisdiction of a state to decide whether reservations set up by the federal government fall under their jurisdiction or not.

You are basically arguing that a blatant misuse of authority is just fine, because it has been going on for so long.
You also realize that different states in the US do have different laws, yes?
If that is fine, why should reservations which fall under federal treaties somehow be treated differently?

 

[Tee Kay]

Nitpicking the thread title 'cause the decision affects the land of five nations: Creek (Muskogee), Cherokee, Chickasaw, Choctaw, and Seminole.

Tulsa is actually split between Creek and Cherokee territory, with a bit of land in the northwest that seems to be part of the Osage Reservation (already recognised before this decision). I'm not too familiar with the situation but the interplay between the federal, state, local, city, and tribal governments in that Osage area might tell us a bit about how it might go in the future with the five nations.

 

[EnglishEdward]

I do not question the fact that different laws apply in different places.
What I find disheartening is the concept that different laws are applied
to different people in the same place. That ought to be a rare exception.

Edit:: Additional Thought

If the Creek Nation land is not part of the State of Oklahoma, as I understand
SCOTUS ruled, does that mean that Creek natives living there are like
Puerto Ricans, i.e. have no right to vote for the President of the USA.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I do not question the fact that different laws apply in different places.
What I find disheartening is the concept that different laws are applied
to different people in the same place. That ought to be a rare exception.

Edit:: Additional Thought

If the Creek Nation land is not part of the State of Oklahoma, as I understand
SCOTUS ruled, does that mean that Creek natives living there are like
Puerto Ricans, i.e. have no right to vote for the President of the USA.
At the moment the biggest impact is that

Native Americans were given full US citizenship in the past even though their tribes are considered nations.