Critique this liberty domination (immortal) save please?

Civilopedian

Chieftain
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Sep 22, 2012
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USS Missouri, Sep 2nd, 1945
Hi. I've been trying to win a liberty/domination victory with America for some time now. I really like their extra sight ability, cheap tile purchasing and minutemen. I keep restarting because of the mistakes I make. I haven't ever got past the mid game! This save I think I have got it cracked. Or have I?

I uploaded two saves. One is where I think I am doing well, and the other is where it basically went downhill and I'm being steamrolled by my game-long ally.

The "decline" save shows how I expanded, building extra cities and taking a significant prize in Cusco, plus some other cities which I needed to help with easier map logistics.

What I think is apparent is that there is something lacking in my game... please tell me what it is!
 

Attachments

  • Washington t182 winning.Civ5Save
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  • American Decline after t182 winn.Civ5Save
    1.5 MB · Views: 83
Also here is the save just before Morocco declares war and steamrolls me with his Berbers and Gatlings (outteched me completely)!

What am I doing wrong to get myself in this mess?
 

Attachments

  • AutoSave_0223 AD-1565.Civ5Save
    1.5 MB · Views: 88
- Large map - why? Practise on Standard sized first. Large maps on Standard pace are much harder.

- Cities are really small
- University slots not being worked
- Atlanta terrible location
- New York and Boston no new unique lux. Cotton and Ivory near New York - did you buy those? Why not settle nearer? If you're settling in Genghis' face anyway, might as well get some luxes up and running. But seriously, this map is awful. I recommend you try the Hellblazer Map Pack. After playing with that, the vanilla map scripts just seem DIRE.
Boston could have had Marble, but you haven't even bought the tile!

- No, you're not winning. Harald has 5 more techs than you. This is not a great position to be at this stage of the game.
- Your tech progress has been small. There is no reason you can't have Dynamite every game by T180 at the very latest, and you are many techs away.

- Your army is really small and scattered all over the place.

- You have strange, pointless and small cities, which have only served to slow your tech pace even more. With Liberty domination, you build 3 cities (sometimes 4 or 5 but not often), and then conquer others. When did you build San Francisco, for example? Never ever settle a city after T100 at the absolute latest unless it's the only way of getting a beach head.

- You have two CS allies. I'd have them all by this time.

- You've not scouted the map properly (unforgivable as America). Consequently there are many CS you haven't even met.

- You're certainly not winning. By the time your small army gets near Marrakesh or Cusco, they will be ready for you and you won't make a dent.

- Your economy is dreadful, mainly because of building maintenance for those pointless little cities. You should have 10x as much gold.

- Social policy wise, Liberty + Honor is really bad. You need to go to Commerce after finishing Liberty. Honor is only worth it if you take it first.

Start another game and try to fix all these bad habits, and then post again.

Sorry to be so negative, but there really is nothing laudable about the position in the game that you felt better about. :)

Happy to help in any way I can :)

[EDIT: Just loaded the other, later map. You've only researched 3 techs in 60 turns. How is this possible??? Many things are seriously wrong, but the worst is those extra cities.]
 
- Large map - why? Practise on Standard sized first. Large maps on Standard pace are much harder.

- Cities are really small
- University slots not being worked
- Atlanta terrible location
- New York and Boston no new unique lux. Cotton and Ivory near New York - did you buy those? Why not settle nearer? If you're settling in Genghis' face anyway, might as well get some luxes up and running. But seriously, this map is awful. I recommend you try the Hellblazer Map Pack. After playing with that, the vanilla map scripts just seem DIRE.
Boston could have had Marble, but you haven't even bought the tile!

- No, you're not winning. Harald has 5 more techs than you. This is not a great position to be at this stage of the game.
- Your tech progress has been small. There is no reason you can't have Dynamite every game by T180 at the very latest, and you are many techs away.

- Your army is really small and scattered all over the place.

- You have strange, pointless and small cities, which have only served to slow your tech pace even more. With Liberty domination, you build 3 cities (sometimes 4 or 5 but not often), and then conquer others. When did you build San Francisco, for example? Never ever settle a city after T100 at the absolute latest unless it's the only way of getting a beach head.

- You have two CS allies. I'd have them all by this time.

- You've not scouted the map properly (unforgivable as America). Consequently there are many CS you haven't even met.

- You're certainly not winning. By the time your small army gets near Marrakesh or Cusco, they will be ready for you and you won't make a dent.

- Your economy is dreadful, mainly because of building maintenance for those pointless little cities. You should have 10x as much gold.

- Social policy wise, Liberty + Honor is really bad. You need to go to Commerce after finishing Liberty. Honor is only worth it if you take it first.

Start another game and try to fix all these bad habits, and then post again.

Sorry to be so negative, but there really is nothing laudable about the position in the game that you felt better about. :)

Happy to help in any way I can :)

[EDIT: Just loaded the other, later map. You've only researched 3 techs in 60 turns. How is this possible??? Many things are seriously wrong, but the worst is those extra cities.]

Thank you for the feedback. I suppose I can explain stuff.

I thought as liberty, playing "wide" you have to build a lot of cities, even if it means they aren't very good. As long as they have a few good tiles it should be ok?

I had 3 online really early, then I took Mongolia's capital, peaced out and built more cities. I then used the cities to build a bunch of units fairly quickly and took Vienna after being called to war by Morocco and then I did Cusco off my own steam. It was quite easy to take them and I didn't seem outteched militarily and I had trebuchets and cannons before my opponents. That's why I thought I was doing well. I built roads to them before I took them.

I thought my army was a good size tbh. I don't really know how to make it bigger!

Atlanta was placed intentionally in a bad place, just so I had a coastal city on that coast which could pick up the marble. I didn't intend for it to grow much.

Seattle went down to get the Incense and to be a staging area for the invasion of Austria (needed a place to go back and heal units fast). I didn't think it was in a bad place. I wanted to spread my religion so I thought building a city here might help.

Chicago and San Fran, again, built for the UL's and to be a nice approach into Morocco later. Turns out it was Morocco approaching me!

A bunch of cities were placed without unique luxuries nearby. Reason was, I figured I only needed uniques if my prior cities didn't have them. I thought I can build one city per unique luxury and be ok for happiness. Take New York for example. I already had furs and incense, so I figure I can put that city anywhere I want. And I wanted to put it on Genghis Khan's doorstep and it was very very useful for keeping my units alive and his at bay.

I used the happiness city states alliances to get me through a number of golden ages and keep me >10 happiness most of the game.

I intentionally also did not work specialists. Reason was, I figured if I work the specialists I'll grow slower. I'm already stunted playing liberty, so I might as well work as much food as possible.

Consequently, I didn't use a single great scientist or great engineer the whole game. I only used great prophets and great generals. I also didn't build any wonders except the national college around t100.

For some reason I thought placing a great merchant on top of cotton still got me the resource. Yeah. I was wrong.

With regards to social policies. I figure I'm going for a domination victory, so I guess I'll need some Honor after filling Liberty. Plus I saw the garrison happiness and culture and thought that would be really nice to help me expand.
 
Honestly I don't know how to get my cities bigger and have more science etc

I was locking all the best tiles. Doing the production focus trick etc

That's why I need help coz there's many things awry in my game. That's why I post, for some help.
 
Thank you for the feedback. I suppose I can explain stuff.

Don't look at it as having to explain yourself. So you're making a load of mistakes...doesn't reflect on you as a person. Christ, the mistakes I used to make when I played my first 1000 hours don't bear thinking about!

Instead, think of it as learning. Everything you do is therefore another step towards better play. The first steps are the easiest. Going from being a 4 star to a 5 star player is the hardest part, because it requires the most concentration and a lot of practice. I'm too lazy to do it, so I'll never join the ranks of the very best players.

I thought as liberty, playing "wide" you have to build a lot of cities, even if it means they aren't very good. As long as they have a few good tiles it should be ok?

No. If you want a peaceful VC then Liberty works best with around 8 cities. But for Domination, especially if you start war early, you don't need that many. Three is enough to pump out some archers ready for CB upgrade by T55-65. What Liberty does that makes it the best opening tree for Domination is:

- 1 free Settler, so you only really need to build 1 more
- hammers, to get the army out faster
- 1 free worker, to help improve the hammer tiles and luxes
- access to Pyramids, a.k.a. the best Wonder in the game for Domination
- Free Golden Age when you most need it, esp. for Persia!
- Happiness once your cities (including those you'll capture) are connected

and most importantly, through the finisher, is the ability to still have the NC reliably by T85 at the latest. You finish Liberty, choose GE, and use him on the NC. So you can have a large army AND NC, plus all the above stuff.

I had 3 online really early, then I took Mongolia's capital, peaced out and built more cities.

This was the first major mistake. Had you used those hammers for units, and the gold maintenance on the granaries etc. for unit maintenance, you could have used those units to pillage and capture, and, well, had more units. If you swing by the thread for the Arabia Deity Challenge, you can see a screenshot of my army halfway through my Domination sweep. And I've had bigger. Check also the old Deity Challenge #5 when I ended up with Tanks. You know when you try to play peaceful and the AI sends a carpet of troops at you. You want to be that carpet in a Domination game.

Also, if you have enough troops (and you should) you can make separate armies to conduct simultaneous wars on different fronts. I recently won a game with Mongolia where I had two armies and swept the Pangaea to win around T140something.

I didn't seem outteched militarily and I had trebuchets and cannons before my opponents. That's why I thought I was doing well

In which case, I'd say you were lucky. You were still researching Chemistry on T182 whereas I would have Dynamite and Industrialisation by then in most games. The AI tech speeds vary, but I doubt you'd still have the edge by the time you got much further across the landmass IN MOST GAMES. For one thing, by beelining Dynamite, you risk having the last few opponents get to Flight before you can prepare for it.

I thought my army was a good size tbh. I don't really know how to make it bigger!

Don't build those extra cities, and train more units.

My usual army sizes in games with game-long war:

1st Army: 6-8 CBs, 3 Melee
2nd Army: 5-6 XBs, 5 Melee (for faster killing of troops), usually Knights, 1-2 Trebs
3rd Army: Cannons and Knights (later Cavalry)
4th Army: Artillery and Cavalry.

By T182 in most games I would probably therefore have (factoring in some casualties): 10 XBs basically retired or for picking off units from Range. 15-25 Artillery and 10-25 Cavalry.

Build them in waves, as and when new techs emerge

Atlanta was placed intentionally in a bad place, just so I had a coastal city on that coast which could pick up the marble. I didn't intend for it to grow much.

Yeah, you have to get out of that way of thinking. Settlers are the most valuable units and you should find the best spots you can. Although I didn't like that map, if I HAD to play it, I would have gone 2 city Honor, and rushed Mongolia T50ish while his pants were down, units off somewhere else.

Seattle went down to get the Incense and to be a staging area for the invasion of Austria (needed a place to go back and heal units fast). I didn't think it was in a bad place. I wanted to spread my religion so I thought building a city here might help
.

You don't need staging areas. Heal units when they need it, but have more of them so the fresh ones can take over from the injured ones. And you should not expend any resources making a religion in a game where the aim is to capture capitals. Clearly, with that much Incense, you could get a lot of faith from GoF, so a Shrine might be worth it, so you can save up for some MidGame GMs, but I certainly wouldn't worry about it spreading.

Chicago and San Fran, again, built for the UL's

ULs give happiness, which you also gain more of by having less cities, remember. Building a city just to get a lux is not worth it. And listen, don't take my word for it if you think I'm being harsh by calling those cities worthless. Ask better players than me, or better yet, watch their videos.

I intentionally also did not work specialists. Reason was, I figured if I work the specialists I'll grow slower. I'm already stunted playing liberty, so I might as well work as much food as possible.

Once the city is size 10, it can work a University and still grow, provided you've developed it properly. Again, watch some videos and see how others do it.

Consequently, I didn't use a single great scientist or great engineer the whole game. I only used great prophets and great generals. I also didn't build any wonders except the national college around t100.

That's a pretty late NC. Try getting it before T85 in your next game and if you do, you'll see the difference it makes.

Even when going Domination, I give myself the following benchmarks for BPT:

T80 (just before NC): 40 beakers
T110 (around the time of Education): 80 beakers
T130 (nicely into the Renaissance with all Unis staffed): 130 beakers

If by T150 your BPT doesn't exceed the turn number, you're doing it wrong.

And as for those Great Scientists, you should use them to Bulb the key techs. If you can get to Fertiliser by T150, with a Great Scientist, a RA and Oxford University, it's only a short distance to Dynamite. There is a Moriarte game when he gets Dynamite in the 150s on Deity with Korea (ok they are great, but still the principles are the same).

With Domination, EVERYTHING comes down to how easily your troops can shred the AI units and capture cities. Practise on that Arabia map I mentioned before. Camel Archers come at a time when they massacre the AI cities.

That's why no one ever talks about a Pracinha rush. :D
 
Are those tech benchmarks for Pangaea? I had a vague idea that you got a "discount" on techs that had already been researched by other Civs when you met them, which would seem to suggest that teching ought to be slower on a Continents map.
 
Yeah, you get a discount, but the raw beakers should still be up there. 3 decent self-founded cities plus let's say 2 capitals and 1 puppet, all with Unis, should still give 130 BPT AT LEAST on T130. On the DCL #17 as Germany, Addis Ababa was enormous when I captured it and once annexed, was bringing in huge amount of beakers.
 
I'm interested that you talk of "the ability to still have the NC reliably by T85 at the latest". I've never had NC earlier than about T95 -- and I regarded that as almost a miracle. As for Liberty, I don't think I've ever finished it before about T90. What do you do to get those faster? Is it about science caravans and CS allies?
 
Since I'm advising that you use the Liberty finisher for a GE to build NC, the benchmark is purely cultural.

For a three city Liberty empire, building Monument first (preferably with chops) in the 2 expansions helps a lot. If you can do quests for Cultural CS to ally them, great. If not, make Oracle a priority. If you can build Oracle, then the free social policy it gives you can help finish Liberty early, and get the NC with the GE.

Other things that can help are cultural pantheons, Pyramids...anyone think of anything else?

Oh, make sure you go for the policy with culture before the one with happiness, too.

Science caravans doesn't help with the social policies, though it obviously helps bring things that help indirectly, like The Wheel, quicker Philosophy, etc.

After being trained, and before being upgraded into CBs right before use, Archers' #1 priority should be barb camp quests. On Immortal those are really doable. One Archer per camp is good until upgrade. I even float scouts past camps, and either snatch them from the AI or whittle the Brute down while healing the Scout in between (the Scout can heal, the Brute can't).
 
When I go 3 city Liberty Dom, I more often use the finisher to plant an Academy because I get NC around T90 anyways.
 
That's also possible. I sometimes use GE for Machu Pichu since I almost always enter Medieval through Guilds these days. If you have a hammer-rich capital, you can sometimes have Army, Machu, Oracle, Pyramids and NC by T90. I tend to use the GE for NC since I focus so much on units and economy for CS alliances.
 
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