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Cultural Diversity
- Thread starter JFD
- Start date
regalman
Reckless Dolphin
I would disagree. It adds something to the game that is uniquely different from the rest.
When I talked to JFD about this he wanted to keep things to two Cultural Groups. Otherwise, I'd like to see a Circum-Polar Cultural Group including the Inuit, the Yupik, the Sami, some of the Siberian Civs, and potentially the Ainu.
As for Aboriginal Australians, they should get their own Cultural Group. At the moment, I think the Kulin are the only ones that would fit in there, but eventually there'd be the Anangu, the Yolngu, the Noongar, and maybe a few others, too.
JFD
Kathigitarkh
A startling lack of input into the Native American split! I'll be honest, I'm only splitting it at request, so Tribal America will suffice for me if no evocative names are suggested. Reedtilt's suggestions are great - very interesting, and clever - but way too obscure for me; First Nations/Tribal sounds better than nothing though.
The division that Reedstilt has outlined seems reasonable and logical from a historical and cultural perspective. I would second the fact that the aboriginal Australian civilizations aught have their own division, as small as it may be - to put them with anyone else would be like Firaxis pitting polynesia in the 'native americas' music group. Though perhaps that division can be put onto the back burner until there are one or two more that fit into it.
As to the naming: well, yeah. Any accurate split name or descriptor is going to be 'obscure' to you. 'Bantu' for those not interested in ethnic and linguistic historiography is also obscure, but it's accurate. The fact is that any words or descriptors you're 'familiar' with are very likely going to be inaccurate phrases or fundamentally problematic - simply by virtue of the fact that naming conventions for indigenous people's have been fundamentally flawed since the discovery of the Americas by Europeans.
So, yeah, Reedstilt's names might sound a little bit obscure to you. But they're a hell of a lot more accurate and useful than First Nations/Tribal Nations - especially considering how many complex societies you would be labeling as 'tribes' when they weren't, how it would be relying on an artificial distinction between native peoples of modern day Canada and the US, and how it won't even fit into your own schema for 'Prestige' down the line.
As to the naming: well, yeah. Any accurate split name or descriptor is going to be 'obscure' to you. 'Bantu' for those not interested in ethnic and linguistic historiography is also obscure, but it's accurate. The fact is that any words or descriptors you're 'familiar' with are very likely going to be inaccurate phrases or fundamentally problematic - simply by virtue of the fact that naming conventions for indigenous people's have been fundamentally flawed since the discovery of the Americas by Europeans.
So, yeah, Reedstilt's names might sound a little bit obscure to you. But they're a hell of a lot more accurate and useful than First Nations/Tribal Nations - especially considering how many complex societies you would be labeling as 'tribes' when they weren't, how it would be relying on an artificial distinction between native peoples of modern day Canada and the US, and how it won't even fit into your own schema for 'Prestige' down the line.
Originally I had suggested using a Smithsonian-equse division for Native American cultures, so it'd end up something like this: Woodlands (Northeast + Southeast), Southwest, Plains (+Great Basin?), Arctic + Subarctic, and Pacific Northwest (+California?). Here's the map of how things would get broken down.
However, that would end up with more Cultural Groups in North America than Europe, and Europe has an absurdly higher number of Civs in each of its categories than all of North America put together.
Which just goes to show that modders need to turn more attention to North America.
A bit late, I prefer Reedstilt's Ongwehonweh/Getanteget split over Tribal/First Nations. The one great thing about obscure labels is that it allows lumping to feel much less awkward, since the terms come with little to no connotations.
Besides, it's a lot better in terms of historicity and gameplay to have the Sami and Inuit with the rest of the hunter-gatherers which is awkward with the Tribal/First Nations split.
Besides, it's a lot better in terms of historicity and gameplay to have the Sami and Inuit with the rest of the hunter-gatherers which is awkward with the Tribal/First Nations split.
TPangolin
Just the worst person
There has to be more apt titles however than Reedstilt's options. I suggested earlier - Borealia, a proposed name for Canada meaning "Northern Land", which is similar to "Australia" which means "Southern Land". Seeing as it aptly describes lands to the north - the Samoyeds, Yupik, Inuit and Sami would all fit into such a category alongside other Canadian First Nation civs.
Since Borealia is more specific to the North and to Canada, the term Native American could come back since it's more specific to the confines of America (USA).
Since Borealia is more specific to the North and to Canada, the term Native American could come back since it's more specific to the confines of America (USA).
JFD
Kathigitarkh
I'm concerned that that title of the mod is being misunderstood again. The point is to foster diversity between civs, not bringing world diversity into the game; so I'm not looking for geographic or ethnic splits for their own sake. At this point, I've resolved to wait until there is a valid, quantitative reason to expand on the groups (because the Tribal American split works as is, unlike as did civs like Israel originally), so the matter on the Tribal American split will be re-addressed when it is necessary and worth the workload.
The Tribal American group won't be re-named to Native Americans, as that would preclude civs such as the Tupi. I understand First Nations isn't a valid name, either, so I won't be using that. At this point, I'm most interested in splitting Africa, but would also like to see more work done to expand the groups. The Andean group doesn't have a quantitative justification (the High-American group as is is only 9 civs, and all are perfectly apt to belong), but the Inca are a personal favourite of mine, so exceptional powers do apply.
The Tribal American group won't be re-named to Native Americans, as that would preclude civs such as the Tupi. I understand First Nations isn't a valid name, either, so I won't be using that. At this point, I'm most interested in splitting Africa, but would also like to see more work done to expand the groups. The Andean group doesn't have a quantitative justification (the High-American group as is is only 9 civs, and all are perfectly apt to belong), but the Inca are a personal favourite of mine, so exceptional powers do apply.
TPangolin
Just the worst person
I'm not misunderstanding it, I'm saying that the Culture and circumstances of the Inuit are much more similar to the Samoyeds, Sami and Yupik than that of the Tupi or the Cherokee.
Given the actual focus on fishing and hunting, the Sámi, Dene and Inuit would probably do much better with the Shoshone and the like under the Getanteget label; they didn't rely on agriculture like the Iroquois did. I suppose this comes down to a Geography vs Lifestyle thing.
JFD
Kathigitarkh
I didn't mean to suggest you were.
Sword_Of_Geddon
Arbiter of the Sword
I think as is the groups are fine the way they are. What I'd like to see(and I'm definitely able to help with this) are more music for the Aesthetics mod, and also I'm very much looking forward to unit diversity JFD style. RED is good, but there are things about the unmodded game that annoy me, such as India having East Asia cities and music, and there are definitely units for the indian civs available.
JFD I notice Africa only has afew tracks, would you like me to upload something on Atomicgamer for you to sample and see if it works for the mod?
JFD I notice Africa only has afew tracks, would you like me to upload something on Atomicgamer for you to sample and see if it works for the mod?
JFD
Kathigitarkh
RawSasquatch
Minuteman
I'm adding internal support to my Texas mod's next update, so you can remove core support for it in the next update. Also, with my Bhutan slowly progressing, which culture do you think they would best fit in? Bharata or Oriental?
JFD
Kathigitarkh
Thanks for letting me know 
For Bhutan, the Buddhist/Hindu divide is a good indication of where it should fall - as it's predominantly Buddhist, I would say Oriental.
For Bhutan, the Buddhist/Hindu divide is a good indication of where it should fall - as it's predominantly Buddhist, I would say Oriental.
JFD
Kathigitarkh
Right now what will probably hold back the update is a lack of Bantu splash screens. So please contribute if you can, otherwise they'll have to use what I have for West-African (none of which, incidentally, works as Bantu-exclusive).