Cultural Victory: What's Your Five?

[teakbois]

Hmm, so for those of you who take Liberty in the late game, what do you do with the free settler? I mean, if you went tradition first, you already have your 3-4 cities with high population and infrastructure all set up by then, so the free settler policy seems pretty useless to me. Unless you take the worker, the production, and the settler, but save the golden age or the great person for later?

Delete the settler.

Tradition > Piety > Liberty/Patronage until Industrial era > Freedom as soon as possible > finish Liberty and Patronage

I plant great prophets until I can start getting Artists. Planted Artists/Prophets really add up when you get the Freedom tree done and the end of the Freedom tree seems to coincide with building of the Louvre and from that point on you are in perma golden age and can usually plant an artist or two during those and still not lose it.

 

[Tachii]

Yeah, that's it. I take the worker, settler, and production early and then save the other two policies for later. I'm not sure if this is optimal, though.

Pros: The Golden Age from Representation will be much more potent once you've built Hermitage, Sistine Chapel, Broadcast Towers, and all the rest. You're likely to have more cultural city-state allies later in the game, too, and that will further amplify the 20% culture bonus from the Golden Age. If you get Chichen Itza and you finish Freedom, then you'll have +100% to the Golden Age length, too. That's a big boost! When you finish Liberty, you can choose a Great Artist for another very potent Golden Age.

Cons: You'll miss out on the cost reduction from Representation and you'll have a bit less happiness without Meritocracy, which means a few less Culture per turn. And, of course, you can't use the Great Person to found/enhance a religion, rush a wonder, or get an early landmark.

If anyone's done the math, I'd love to see it.

Thing is the free Aqueduct and 15% growth is actually pretty powerful stuff, more useful than the free worker + settler imo. Considering how you would need 3 policies just to get both of these, it means you either have to build the aqueduct yourself or wait at least 30 turns to complete Tradition.

Considering also you will only have 3-4 cities for an optimal culture victory, the Tradition happiness policy might trump Meritocracy for probably the majority of the game. And don't forget it also boosts your gold as well. I forgot if the gold building modifiers affect this or not.

 

[Syntax Error]

Hmmm, looks like Tabarnak's 4-city Tradition opener is quite flexible. Is it possible to get to Industrial after 6 policies (completed Tradition)?

 

[ifinnem]

Hmm, so for those of you who take Liberty in the late game, what do you do with the free settler? I mean, if you went tradition first, you already have your 3-4 cities with high population and infrastructure all set up by then, so the free settler policy seems pretty useless to me. Unless you take the worker, the production, and the settler, but save the golden age or the great person for later?

I'd have to look back as I think I've done both Liberty first and Tradition first games with T270-T280 finish times. I think for Liberty late you just eat the free settler policy as its literally some of your later policies when all you are doing is checking off policies and teching to CR (which you use the Liberty GE for)

 

[Kwami]

Thing is the free Aqueduct and 15% growth is actually pretty powerful stuff, more useful than the free worker + settler imo. Considering how you would need 3 policies just to get both of these, it means you either have to build the aqueduct yourself or wait at least 30 turns to complete Tradition.

Considering also you will only have 3-4 cities for an optimal culture victory, the Tradition happiness policy might trump Meritocracy for probably the majority of the game. And don't forget it also boosts your gold as well. I forgot if the gold building modifiers affect this or not.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. I was talking about the Liberty tree and when I take each of those policies. The free Aqueduct comes from Tradition, which I take in its entirety ASAP.

 

[Tabarnak]

Hmmm, looks like Tabarnak's 4-city Tradition opener is quite flexible. Is it possible to get to Industrial after 6 policies (completed Tradition)?

I thought it wasn't the case in the beginning but it looks like that Tradition is slightly better than Liberty for cultural games like it is for other peaceful victories(in fact even domination games seem more appealing with Tradition...nerf coming?). And going for a 4 cities approach is certainly viable. The ind. era is too late to start it for your 2nd tree.

Personnally, i think the optimal way should be :

3 cities approach--->buy 2 settler--->granary in capital ASAP then GL or Pyramids for immortal or below. Grow all cities and build NC. Build 4th one when you finish Tradition and NC. Build a wonder into other cities as well.

This path can help you finish the Tradition tree a bit faster. The 4th city will grow in no time thanks to his free aqueduct.

Get Education ASAP, ally most cultural cs as possible. Finishing Tradition very soon in the game really helps too. The access to Freedom will determine at which date you can theorically finish your game. This tree is your bread and butter for fast cultural games. Finishing Piety and getting a ton of golden ages can reduce grantly your date too.

Tree order preference :

Tradition(full)
Piety(full)
Some of Liberty or Patronage
Freedom(as soon as i reach ind. era)(full)
Rest of Liberty
Rest of Patronage

Now, how to rush Sistine when starting with Tradition? I can go for workshops first if i don't build any early wonder producing ge points. If i build this kind of wonder early on(the best i think), i go for Education then make a detour to Metal Casting. I build a workshop and finish my first ge dude when i reach Acoustics.

 

[n00bxqb]

Tradition, Piety, Patronage, Commerce, and Freedom (not necessarily in that order)

 

[Syntax Error]

I thought it wasn't the case in the beginning but it looks like that Tradition is slightly better than Liberty for cultural games like it is for other peaceful victories(in fact even domination games seem more appealing with Tradition...nerf coming?). And going for a 4 cities approach is certainly viable. The ind. era is too late to start it for your 2nd tree.

Personnally, i think the optimal way should be :

3 cities approach--->buy 2 settler--->granary in capital ASAP then GL or Pyramids for immortal or below. Grow all cities and build NC. Build 4th one when you finish Tradition and NC. Build a wonder into other cities as well.

This path can help you finish the Tradition tree a bit faster. The 4th city will grow in no time thanks to his free aqueduct.

Get Education ASAP, ally most cultural cs as possible. Finishing Tradition very soon in the game really helps too. The access to Freedom will determine at which date you can theorically finish your game. This tree is your bread and butter for fast cultural games. Finishing Piety and getting a ton of golden ages can reduce grantly your date too.

Tree order preference :

Tradition(full)
Piety(full)
Some of Liberty or Patronage
Freedom(as soon as i reach ind. era)(full)
Rest of Liberty
Rest of Patronage

Now, how to rush Sistine when starting with Tradition? I can go for workshops first if i don't build any early wonder producing ge points. If i build this kind of wonder early on(the best i think), i go for Education then make a detour to Metal Casting. I build a workshop and finish my first ge dude when i reach Acoustics.

Not sure about Immortal, but I managed to get both GL and Stonehenge at Emperor. You can probably get a GE from Stonehenge even before getting up to Sistine Chapel. Then again, having such an early wonder as a critical aspect of your victory seems very stupid, IMO.

Assuming standard everything and a pangaea, I think a great Civ for culture is Korea. Culture and Science share most of the same tech path, IIRC, so fielding Artist Specialists also allow you to keep up with science more or less.

 

[Tachii]

I just tried out a game with Egypt, beelined for Writing, cut up 2 forest tiles, took that Tradition modifier policy, was going to make it at T38 or something, then Austria beats me at T32 on Immortal. Yep. Not going to try that again. And this isn't just bad luck, you need good luck if you want to build it. I rather build more useful units than get a paltry sum of gold from the failure. I got like 118 gold from almost 20 turns of production when 2 warriors/archers cost less than that in hammers and more in gold. :/

 

[Kwami]

I just tried out a game with Egypt, beelined for Writing, cut up 2 forest tiles, took that Tradition modifier policy, was going to make it at T38 or something, then Austria beats me at T32 on Immortal. Yep. Not going to try that again. And this isn't just bad luck, you need good luck if you want to build it. I rather build more useful units than get a paltry sum of gold from the failure. I got like 118 gold from almost 20 turns of production when 2 warriors/archers cost less than that in hammers and more in gold. :/

The AI seems really random about which wonders it builds in the early game. I had a recent Immortal game where I built the Great Library because I had nothing better to do. My choices were Library, Great Library, or a military unit that I didn't need. Crazy, huh? I've had it happen with The Pyramids and Stonehenge, too. The one that I've never had luck with is Hanging Gardens, which is also the one that I usually want. Bah!

Anyway, I wouldn't rely on any early wonders for a generic strategy. At Immortal/Deity, consider any early wonders that you manage to build a bonus. And no, you don't need Stonehenge for every game.

 

[Tachii]

Same here. I managed to build a GL after I build a library and this was around T80 or something in one of my games. Never happened again though.

After game after game I conclude Pyramids probably have the lowest priority for AIs. Along with Helicarnassus (unless somebody get 2+ quarry tiles). It seem some of them neglect Masonry altogether and just beeline for Civil Service. So it get's kind of funny when I was in the Renaissance once and somebody stole Masonry. I was like, really?

 

[budweiser]

Tabarnak - I'm just not sure about full Traditon instead of Representation. If its agreed that full piety is needed and then full freedom, then you have a mix of 5 or 6 choies (I think) before you open Piety.

Landed Elite - This is free food, but really is a Fancy word for slavery! Citizenship itself is a food buff, but also more flexible. I'm think its at least a wash between the two.

To me the real engine of culture is the Representation/Reformation combo.

Honor - you know you have to get X number of policies per game. Opening Honor early AND taking the policy for garrisons will give a lot of culture over the long run. What good is completing 4 trees, then just running through the 5th tree for minimal gains in that tree.

I suggest:

Mix Honnor, Liberty, Tradition
Striaght Piety
Straight Freedom
Finish first three trees.

And the key is making money so you can do RAs. These are what really move you through the tree and open the cultural buildings up fast.

As a matter of fact, I would like to try a cultural win without using Wonders, just the buildings, policies, etc. National wonder allowed.

 

[MantaRevan]

Siam
Polynesia
France
India
Ethiopia

EDIT
Sorry I thought we were doing Civs.
As for policy, I prefer tradition for a number of reasons, most importantly free aqueducts and aristocracy. Piety is the obvious one, mandate of heaven is incredibly good. I also like Patronage to keep hold of the cultural CSs, and Commerce because protectionism+mandate of heaven= a lot of culture. Freedom is nice too, for obvious reasons, but I find that it creates tension with the more aggressive autocratic AIs.

 

[Kwami]

Tabarnak - I'm just not sure about full Traditon instead of Representation. If its agreed that full piety is needed and then full freedom, then you have a mix of 5 or 6 choies (I think) before you open Piety.

Landed Elite - This is free food, but really is a Fancy word for slavery! Citizenship itself is a food buff, but also more flexible. I'm think its at least a wash between the two.

Landed Elite isn't necessarily slavery. Besides, we can't just go about choosing social policies that reflect our real-life politics.

In what way is Citizenship a food buff? Are you assuming that the food obtained from working tiles sooner is equivalent to +2 food and +10% growth?

To me the real engine of culture is the Representation/Reformation combo.

I don't think that Representation is very powerful for a tall empire with only 3 or 4 cities. It's certainly nice to have, but is it worth prioritizing early in the game when you could be putting points into Tradition and Piety? The Golden Age is pretty weak in the early game, lasting only the standard number of turns and giving you a 20% increase to whatever small culture per turn you have. If you wait until later, you'll get a 50% longer Golden Age (100% longer with Chichen Itza) that provides a 20% modifier on a much larger culture per turn value.

Honor - you know you have to get X number of policies per game. Opening Honor early AND taking the policy for garrisons will give a lot of culture over the long run. What good is completing 4 trees, then just running through the 5th tree for minimal gains in that tree.

I started a game with The Aztecs last night and started with the Tradition opener and then the Honor opener. Getting 20 culture from a barbarian kill did help me finish Tradition sooner than I would normally, but it isn't very potent beyond that point and the rest of the policies in Honor aren't very useful for a cultural game. You'll get 6-8 base culture from Military Caste. Once you get Mandate of Heaven, you'll get +1-2 culture from the happiness perk on Military Caste and another 9-12 from Professional Army if you actually build all four defensive structures in each of your 3-4 cities. That's a pretty weak culture tree, overall, and it doesn't get your cities up faster like Tradition and Liberty do. I think I'd only go with Honor again if I was expecting an early war that I would otherwise have trouble winning.

I suggest:

Mix Honnor, Liberty, Tradition
Striaght Piety
Straight Freedom
Finish first three trees.

See above, but also, finishing Tradition early is important for the free Aqueducts and the 15% growth rate. Saving Tradition for later doesn't make any sense.

And the key is making money so you can do RAs. These are what really move you through the tree and open the cultural buildings up fast.

As a matter of fact, I would like to try a cultural win without using Wonders, just the buildings, policies, etc. National wonder allowed.

But you'll have a harder time saving gold if you don't take Patronage or Commerce. The culture gained from city-states and their luxuries is huge.

 

[Kwami]

Siam
Polynesia
France
India
Ethiopia

I like The Celts for their easymode religion and the happiness bonus. Ethiopia is great for a one-city challenge, but I haven't convinced myself to do a cultural OCC yet.

EDIT
Sorry I thought we were doing Civs.
As for policy, I prefer tradition for a number of reasons, most importantly free aqueducts and aristocracy. Piety is the obvious one, mandate of heaven is incredibly good. I also like Patronage to keep hold of the cultural CSs, and Commerce because protectionism+mandate of heaven= a lot of culture. Freedom is nice too, for obvious reasons, but I find that it creates tension with the more aggressive autocratic AIs.

Yeah, but you're going to have a hard time finishing a cultural victory in time without Freedom. Thankfully, most of the AI civs don't select an Industrial-Age policy tree until fairly late in the game and by then it's easy to defend against whatever attack force they might muster.

 

[Tachii]

I'd take India off that list and put Persia up there. Obvious reasons are obvious. +4/5 turns of Golden Age means 20% more culture or having that one extra artist to settle a landmark than expending it for another Golden Age.

 

[Tabarnak]

Tabarnak - I'm just not sure about full Traditon instead of Representation. If its agreed that full piety is needed and then full freedom, then you have a mix of 5 or 6 choies (I think) before you open Piety.

Landed Elite - This is free food, but really is a Fancy word for slavery! Citizenship itself is a food buff, but also more flexible. I'm think its at least a wash between the two.

To me the real engine of culture is the Representation/Reformation combo.

Honor - you know you have to get X number of policies per game. Opening Honor early AND taking the policy for garrisons will give a lot of culture over the long run. What good is completing 4 trees, then just running through the 5th tree for minimal gains in that tree.

I suggest:

Mix Honnor, Liberty, Tradition
Striaght Piety
Straight Freedom
Finish first three trees.

And the key is making money so you can do RAs. These are what really move you through the tree and open the cultural buildings up fast.

As a matter of fact, I would like to try a cultural win without using Wonders, just the buildings, policies, etc. National wonder allowed.

I suggest you to watch this video made by DaveMcW for the last GOTM game(emperor, continent).

He more or less followed what you said. I think it's not bad when you go for a domination game because your goal described here is to get best single policies available form multiple trees but you need an ''extra'' to make this worthwhile, hence the warmonger path for more extra cities and culture.

It's not a bad approach, but it's not optimal for fastest cultural victories.

 

[ifinnem]

Tree order preference :

Tradition(full)
Piety(full)
Some of Liberty or Patronage
Freedom(as soon as i reach ind. era)(full)
Rest of Liberty
Rest of Patronage
.

I mostly agree with this if going Tradition first but I think you need to get to Industrial ASAP (use Oxford?) so wondering how many you really need after the -10% in piety.
More experiments needed....

Either way I'd value the first 2 patronage policies (and maybe liberty opener) over the piety finisher

 

[petey]

My first goal is to finish Tradition and Piety. After that, I open Commerce for the gold boost and then take as many Patronage policies as I can before the Industrial era, then finish Freedom. After that, I finish off the Patronage policies and then wrap up Commerce.

 

[Kwami]

I mostly agree with this if going Tradition first but I think you need to get to Industrial ASAP (use Oxford?) so wondering how many you really need after the -10% in piety.
More experiments needed....

Either way I'd value the first 2 patronage policies (and maybe liberty opener) over the piety finisher

The 20% cost reduction on purchases made with Faith is actually pretty good for getting those cathedrals up and spreading your religion around. You might even get a few extra prophets (and thus holy sites) out of it before you hit the Industrial Era.

Of course, the first few Liberty policies are only useful early in the game, so you should probably have opened Liberty before you finish Piety anyway. Patronage is less useful in the early game because the rewards are tiny in the early eras and you aren't likely to have enough gold to maintain more than 1-2 allies anyway.