Culture abuse

[stachnie]

Sometimes the cities just get razed, even if they have size greater than one. I do not know what is the rule.

Strike team may be used if you lack siege units. Recently I had a funny situation: at a continent where I got two remaining Culture groups there was some AI Civ (it emerged from a conquered town, took two small AI cities and then I took their first town). They were unstable and (I guess) to make the people quiet they declared a war on me. One city was a bread and butter for my two Str 40+ mounted infantries (base Str 8, 3 merged units, 2 Quality Up promotions, some Str+ promotions, lots of free promotions - just after being built in my main military City) but the second one managed to get Walls. Before I transported 2 rushed Hwachas from my main continent, the city had been taken by my special forces...

And a tip how to get two or more Quality Up promotions from the start: when giving promotions, give some Str+ ones. After Quality Up, they are reset and may be given again.

S.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Yes, exactly. In my present game I am in a middle-late Ancient era, own a continent (Hemispheres with 3 continents) and already have 4 culture groups (everything but both Americas and Oceania) - without any reloading.

@Raven Destroyer: it seems Coyote Warriors are a replacement for Obsidian Swordsmen (so availability with Masomry is nothing wrong) but simply they are too strong. +2 strength (5->7), +1 MP, ignore terrain cost, one free promotion...

S.

No they are not too strong. If you don't have copper and later iron they are a counter for str 7 axe, str 7 sword, and str 6 spear. And if you use Nat. Limits on these you only get 15.

But if you uses the game Option More Resources then it throws the balance under the bus.

EDIT: Just realized I responded to an almost year old post!

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

No they are not too strong. If you don't have copper and later iron they are a counter for str 7 axe, str 7 sword, and str 6 spear. And if you use Nat. Limits on these you only get 15.

But if you uses the game Option More Resources then it throws the balance under the bus.

EDIT: Just realized I responded to an almost year old post!

JosEPh

I would think More Resources wouldn't really cause a problem with that.. but unlimited national units might.

I believe they are one of a number of units that are WAY out of balance for their era. Nothing wrong with giving them +1 strength, but +2? Too much. Then on top of that they are getting +1 MP, ignore terrain cost, AND one free promotion??? Generally, uniques should get one or maybe 2 of the above benefits. All four makes that culture too strong in comparison to other cultures, regardless of any potential imbalances with other units from their era (concurrent units). One culture shouldn't really be any better than another for any given reason. Sure they should be different, but they should still be balanced against one another so that no given culture is inherrantly superior to achieve.

 

[TrippedOnACloud]

Unlimited National Units doesn't really make a huge difference balance-wise, at least not in the case of the culture units that have a +2% cost increase per owned. That cost increase stacks up pretty quickly, and makes it impractical from a cost-efficiency perspective to mass only one type of culture unit, even if it's particularly strong.

That said, Coyote Runners are probably one of the strongest culture units there is for their time. Reflecting on my games, I think the notable (early) culture units for me are Coyote Runners (for reasons above), Catamarans (Earliest sea-capable ship), Carracks (Earliest ocean-capable ship capable of transporting military units), and Immortals (Mounted that gets terrain/defensive bonuses and double-dips into Archery XP bonuses). Nothing else really comes to mind as being particularly noteworthy, as they're either only slight improvements or the game is already won by the time they're acquired. Several other units that used to be much more useful relative to contemporary units are less so now that the Quick March/Forced March mechanism is in place, so strategic mobility in the form of increased movement on the unit itself is less important. This was mostly for siege (Hwacha comes to mind), the various 2-movement melee units, and the early 3-movement mounted units.

 

[stachnie]

@TB: now Coyote Warriors have +1 STR, because the strength of many early units has increased, including Obsidian Swordsmen (now 6). Free promotion (Flanking 1) is just icing on a cake. However, they have extreme mobility when compared with the other units of their epoch (+1 MP, ignore terrain cost) what makes them the strongest AND the fastest units until metal-based units become available.

S.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I would think More Resources wouldn't really cause a problem with that.. but unlimited national units might.

I believe they are one of a number of units that are WAY out of balance for their era. Nothing wrong with giving them +1 strength, but +2? Too much. Then on top of that they are getting +1 MP, ignore terrain cost, AND one free promotion??? Generally, uniques should get one or maybe 2 of the above benefits. All four makes that culture too strong in comparison to other cultures, regardless of any potential imbalances with other units from their era (concurrent units). One culture shouldn't really be any better than another for any given reason. Sure they should be different, but they should still be balanced against one another so that no given culture is inherrantly superior to achieve.

I took care of this problem when I upped the base axe, spear, and associated units after the Siege Unit spam. And upset your (back then) unit chart. As Stachnie has posted above.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@TB: now Coyote Warriors have +1 STR, because the strength of many early units has increased, including Obsidian Swordsmen (now 6). Free promotion (Flanking 1) is just icing on a cake. However, they have extreme mobility when compared with the other units of their epoch (+1 MP, ignore terrain cost) what makes them the strongest AND the fastest units until metal-based units become available.

S.

So you prefer to have the Vultures, Immortals, and other "old world" special units be the strongest all the time? Yech!

And Elephant riders are still stronger than CW's too. Or did you mean only foot warriors/units when you said, "makes them the strongest AND the fastest units until metal-based units become available..."?

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

I took care of this problem when I upped the base axe, spear, and associated units after the Siege Unit spam. And upset your (back then) unit chart. As Stachnie has posted above.

Point taken but the rest of the point I made has not been taken. They should get strength over plus maybe one other benefit, not all 3 of the other benefits they get currently.

+1 move & Ignore Terrain cost is enough for a special unit. If we must give them both of these benefits, take away the strength bonus. If we must have the strength bonus, take away the Ignore Terrain cost and the promotion. If we must have the promotion, take away Ignore Terrain cost and extra strength. All 4 of these improvements over the core are each a major bonus that most cultural units only get one of.

If the unit MUST remain imbalanced for whatever reason, then at least get rid of the unnecessary promotion.

Of course, another way to go about it is to beef up all those under gifted unique units out there. That would suit as well.

I'd take a two pronged approach. If it were just me, I'd take out the promo on this unit but then make almost all unique units have a bit of strength improvement over the core model unit and give each some benefits that compare to +1 movement and Ignore Terrain cost, sometimes via free promos if necessary but I'd avoid free promos as often as possible.

In other words, I believe the problem is as much that most uniques are not given enough benefits rather than this unit being TOO gifted (but it still is that as well by just a bit.)

 

[Noriad2]

Personally I don't mind that culture units have significant benefits over other contemporary units, as long as they are not completely overpowering. There should be a reason to build them (except roleplay). Otherwise building the culture that unlocks them is just a waste of hammers.

Superior quality can be overcome by superior quantity and if that is not an option, defending stacks have significant benefits over attacking stacks.

But I guess it comes down to which game you like more: Chess or Checkers?

 

[stachnie]

So you prefer to have the Vultures, Immortals, and other "old world" special units be the strongest all the time? Yech!

Speed always comes at the cost of strength. CW's are extremely mobile, so they should not be the strongest ones. If you want CW to be strong but not imbalanced, make them similar to Xifos (or so, Minoan UU), e.g. Str 9, 1 MP, no metal required, available with Iron Working, cost like Light Swordsman.

And Elephant riders are still stronger than CW's too.

I forgot them. But they are slower and I think they may be easily countered by Spearmen-type units. Elephant Rider vs Obsidian/Stone Spearmen means greater losses than CW's vs Obsidian/Stone Axemen.

S.

 

[BlueGenie]

Personally I don't mind that culture units have significant benefits over other contemporary units, as long as they are not completely overpowering. There should be a reason to build them (except roleplay). Otherwise building the culture that unlocks them is just a waste of hammers.

Superior quality can be overcome by superior quantity and if that is not an option, defending stacks have significant benefits over attacking stacks.

But I guess it comes down to which game you like more: Chess or Checkers?

I agree here.
Right now there are several Culture units that are barely worth training at all as they might come with 1 or 2 extra promotions from start but other than that are just the same as their counterpart base unit, and some times the promotion does no good anyway (Archer unit with Woodsman I, II and Forestry. As Archer's are incapable of ranged attacks anyway, on a Composite Bowman this would be more valuable. Or even more an Archer unit starting with Hunter I and Poison Tips, the latter being a free promotion with the right requirements anyway and the former, well, Trackers are far better hunters than Archers.)

But going through them all is a huge project so for now I'll live with it even if I'd rather see a larger benefit with Culture Units than most give now, especially considering some get drastic improvements (CW).
Toning some down and upping the others a little would be good I think, when there's time for it, and after normal units have been balanced to have varied countermeasure strengths instead of just increased base strengths.

Cheers

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Point taken but the rest of the point I made has not been taken. They should get strength over plus maybe one other benefit, not all 3 of the other benefits they get currently.

+1 move & Ignore Terrain cost is enough for a special unit. If we must give them both of these benefits, take away the strength bonus. If we must have the strength bonus, take away the Ignore Terrain cost and the promotion. If we must have the promotion, take away Ignore Terrain cost and extra strength. All 4 of these improvements over the core are each a major bonus that most cultural units only get one of.

If the unit MUST remain imbalanced for whatever reason, then at least get rid of the unnecessary promotion.

Of course, another way to go about it is to beef up all those under gifted unique units out there. That would suit as well.

I'd take a two pronged approach. If it were just me, I'd take out the promo on this unit but then make almost all unique units have a bit of strength improvement over the core model unit and give each some benefits that compare to +1 movement and Ignore Terrain cost, sometimes via free promos if necessary but I'd avoid free promos as often as possible.

In other words, I believe the problem is as much that most uniques are not given enough benefits rather than this unit being TOO gifted (but it still is that as well by just a bit.)

I agree here.
Right now there are several Culture units that are barely worth training at all as they might come with 1 or 2 extra promotions from start but other than that are just the same as their counterpart base unit, and some times the promotion does no good anyway (Archer unit with Woodsman I, II and Forestry. As Archer's are incapable of ranged attacks anyway, on a Composite Bowman this would be more valuable. Or even more an Archer unit starting with Hunter I and Poison Tips, the latter being a free promotion with the right requirements anyway and the former, well, Trackers are far better hunters than Archers.)

But going through them all is a huge project so for now I'll live with it even if I'd rather see a larger benefit with Culture Units than most give now, especially considering some get drastic improvements (CW).
Toning some down and upping the others a little would be good I think, when there's time for it, and after normal units have been balanced to have varied countermeasure strengths instead of just increased base strengths.

Cheers

In general I agree with these arguments.

I disagree that units are the only solution. I would like to see a bit more variation. Why not have a Culture provide a line of promotions for normal units instead of a variant on a unit for example? This would give a bit more reasoned approach to specializing some of your units. It would be similar to the Doctrines used in the RI mod in many ways.

When we have equipment that will possibly provide another set of options.

 

[BlueGenie]

@DH: That's something I agreed with someone else coming with suggestions about in some other thread I think, to add Global bonuses to various areas from a culture, like:
+10% or 25% Worker Speeds or Wonder Constructions or Building Constructions or Ship Building or Military Training.
New nationwide promotion for all of some classes of units giving +10% or 25% in some terrain.
Increased Property per City, 5 or 10, to Education or Tourism or Criminal Detection or Spy Prevention.
Decreased Property by City, 5 or 10, to Crime, Disease, aso.
Increased City Defence by 5 to 25%.

Not too many of the same ones of course as they could stack, so maximum X bonus in total if managing to get all cultures giving the same bonus.

Cheers

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Since Cultures are buildings it would be possible to achieve this with a Culture-Effect style building that the Culture gives to all cities. The two main problems with this is that the AI may not notice it and we don't show it directly in the pedia as we only show a link to the free building.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I disagree that units are the only solution. I would like to see a bit more variation. Why not have a Culture provide a line of promotions for normal units instead of a variant on a unit for example? This would give a bit more reasoned approach to specializing some of your units. It would be similar to the Doctrines used in the RI mod in many ways.

When we have equipment that will possibly provide another set of options.

Hydro and I always wanted to include equipments. It's also a lovely idea to have the promos as you suggest. I suppose when we're 'stretching' to get the unit defined and the unit lacks a real valuable edge and historical pertinence then we could possible replace with promos like you suggest.

Something to look at as units get reviewed.

@DH: That's something I agreed with someone else coming with suggestions about in some other thread I think, to add Global bonuses to various areas from a culture, like:
+10% or 25% Worker Speeds or Wonder Constructions or Building Constructions or Ship Building or Military Training.
New nationwide promotion for all of some classes of units giving +10% or 25% in some terrain.
Increased Property per City, 5 or 10, to Education or Tourism or Criminal Detection or Spy Prevention.
Decreased Property by City, 5 or 10, to Crime, Disease, aso.
Increased City Defence by 5 to 25%.

Not too many of the same ones of course as they could stack, so maximum X bonus in total if managing to get all cultures giving the same bonus.

Cheers

I know I responded to this in the same way in the other thread but I do plan to have cultures be adopted as a civic if the culture exists in enough strength to be able to do so and as we know, civics have a tremendous amount of national level modifier effects available. It's fully intended for all those tags to eventually play roles in adopted cultures.

Since Cultures are buildings it would be possible to achieve this with a Culture-Effect style building that the Culture gives to all cities. The two main problems with this is that the AI may not notice it and we don't show it directly in the pedia as we only show a link to the free building.

The AI would only need to know to value the culture provided that they are all balanced. Applying it like this would mean that all cities in the nation gain the benefits...

This could end up being cumulatively imbalanced if one player hoards most of the cultures, which is a strategy that would be difficult to teach the AI to do with the same effectiveness as a player may.

 

[stachnie]

By the end of this version cycle, the AI may learn a few ways to counter your tricks but they'll never be completely obsolete

This is not the case yet. Changes in the recent SVN's made it a bit more difficult (I am no longer able to build Ambushers after all Stalkers had been built) but I am still able to split and wipe strong AI's without any war. Here is my recipe.

1. Build your first Ambushers soon and give them some flee promotion (one is enough). Attack strong (but not too strong) enemy units and you will get a lot of free flee promotions. If you pick too strong opponents, your casualities among less experienced units would be too high. Important promotions: +Strength (ASAP), Combat line, March (after C3, ASAP), Speed (after C4), Quality Up (ASAP). Such team will be able to take down the first AI's. However, in case of cities with good defenses and some merged defenders this may take a long time...

2. Get Mesopotamism, build all religious buildings, especially in your main military city. This will give the "Assistanxce of..." free promotions (faster healing, immunity to first strikes, more XP...). Get all possible buildings with free promotions (Archery Tradition, Tatoos etc.).

3. Get Aristocracy ASAP. At this time your main military city should give some decent XP and free promotions to new units. Build three pairs Noble/Stalker, attach Nobles to Stalkers. Suggested promotions: Combat 2, both +50% XP Noble promotions (giving also Blitz and +20% withdrawal), March, +Strength, Speed, Quality Up. After CoL Ambushers may be upgraded to Assassins, but they are not so good: they cannot attach Nobles (so no Blitz, at least until Renaissance era) and they cannot attack cities from outside. After upgrade I used to rebuild Ambushers (now with some free promotions), attach Nobles and finally get a bit weaker members of strike team, but it seems this is no longer possible.

After the first fights (especially after the first Quality Up) such team is unstoppable. Even Forced March (-25% Str) does not hurt them but makes them more effective - I may try to give them Quick March instead. In my present game (Immortal, early-mid Classical, now I discover remaining Ancient techs) I have got the second Quality Up - now all my Stalkers have 24.25 Str (or so), 225 HP, 5 MP (+1 from Forced March: +1 from Speed, +1 from some Flee promotion), Combat V or VI. The other civs are in a late Ancient era, one civ entered Classical (I gave them Cryptography) but they are already dead (11 or 12 cities -> most of them autorazed, tons of slaves, 2 new civs).


S.

 

[Thunderbrd]

It's not the end of the version cycle yet

Still, you show some good points to teach the AI to counter.