Defense Pacts broken a LOT for no reason?

[Peacemongerer]

I've had times where the DP lasted and worked properly (I was attacked and all three people I had DPs with came to my aid), but the DPs aren't like other treaties where you HAVE to stay at war... they all negotiated peace 3 turns later and I was left to fend for myself.

Stil pwned tho.

 

[Dearmad]

Posted a save game on the first page last post. Anyone check it out?

 

[vcutag]

I had a problem earlier in a game I'm playing (tilted map, which is a lot of fun) as Ethiopia where I traded a chunk of gold and some spare iron for some horses, only to have it end literally the next turn. Later that same game, something screwy happened with my GPT, I went from making something like 40-50 per turn to being -65 or so in the hole. Completely borked my economy.

Here's a screenshot of my "Completed Deals" screen on the next turn.

Spoiler :

It even says the deal "lasted for 25 turns," so I think this has to be a bug. I asked Egypt for the same deal and he turned me down. There's something screwy going on with diplomacy; I hope they fix it in a patch soon.

 

[Abraxis]

In my last game I had similar issues I think... I consistantly maintained DPs with three other civs, and only once I got dragged into war (I didn't even know about it till who knows how many turns later when Arabia asked for peace out of the blue). It was a large map with 22 civs, so I didn't really look too much into things to see what was going on with that, as I had other concerns, it just felt like it was only sometimes working as intended (there's no way my allies started every other war as they were peaceful and weak).

Once China came to me asking for a DP 3-4 turns after I had made one with her, and she certainly did not go to war in that time, that I'm sure of. I feel like with that many civs and treaties going on, even the game forgets what should be happening in the complex nebulous web of diplomatic relations.

I had a problem earlier in a game I'm playing (tilted map, which is a lot of fun)...

Totally off topic, but... why? I made a Tilted map (continents) and revealed it just to see what it was and... half the map was unreachable and nothing but snow/ice. How is that fun? I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just feel like there must be something I'm missing, how does the frozen bit even play into the rest of the map? Wouldn't everyone just avoid it?

 

[vcutag]

Totally off topic, but... why? I made a Tilted map (continents) and revealed it just to see what it was and... half the map was unreachable and nothing but snow/ice. How is that fun? I'm not trying to be a jerk, I just feel like there must be something I'm missing, how does the frozen bit even play into the rest of the map? Wouldn't everyone just avoid it?

For the most part, yeah. If you're by the border between tundra and snow, you have to deal with waves of barbarians who spawn in the empty quarter and get more and more aggressive (assuming you turn on raging barbarians); it also gives you a way to get to the other side of a pangaea map (example, I had to fend off a random attack from England, who's on the other end of the map 4-5 players away from me). I'm building a map in worldbuilder now for my next game, with all of the uranium, aluminum, oil and coal on the map up in the frozen north. Should be interesting to see how it plays out. YMMV.

 

[Dearmad]

I had a problem earlier in a game I'm playing (tilted map, which is a lot of fun) as Ethiopia where I traded a chunk of gold and some spare iron for some horses, only to have it end literally the next turn. Later that same game, something screwy happened with my GPT, I went from making something like 40-50 per turn to being -65 or so in the hole. Completely borked my economy.

Here's a screenshot of my "Completed Deals" screen on the next turn.

Spoiler :

It even says the deal "lasted for 25 turns," so I think this has to be a bug. I asked Egypt for the same deal and he turned me down. There's something screwy going on with diplomacy; I hope they fix it in a patch soon.

Yeah this is the kind of stuff I'm seeing too. A lot. The trade deals are even bugged sometime.

 

[Flying Mathias]

I remember that I had set up DPs with every civ except the Maya and Carthage. 3 turns later, Carthage declared war on me out of nowhere, and out of 5 civs, only Byzantine actually declared war on Dido.

 

[Can Not]

I had some DP with the fellowship of the AIs, and the next turn a CS declared war on one of my DP partners, so naturally the game instantly declared war on my behalf against Stockholm and humbly gave me all the negative influence/diplomacy associated with declaring any normal war on a CS. Arabia would not shut up about how I declared war on their little DP buddy Stockholm. I think that qualifies as a bug.

 

[DemonMaster]

I had some DP with the fellowship of the AIs, and the next turn a CS declared war on one of my DP partners, so naturally the game instantly declared war on my behalf against Stockholm and humbly gave me all the negative influence/diplomacy associated with declaring any normal war on a CS. Arabia would not shut up about how I declared war on their little DP buddy Stockholm. I think that qualifies as a bug.

Bug?
Let's take another example. If you, let's say, playing Germany have a DP with, for example, Austria and for example Russia DoW against Austria for attacking a CS, let's say Belgrade. This DoW activates the Germany-Austria DP and so Germany DoW against Russia. And no one blamed Germany for the war that came out of this "black week".

If you don't want to be dragged into a war, don't sign DPs.

 

[AriochIV]

I have never in 2000+ hours of Civ V play seen a Defense Pact do ANYTHING. EVER.

 

[eisforeccentric]

If you don't want to be dragged into a war, don't sign DPs.

Agreed. If you want to avoid the penalties that come with being at war, don't do something that might lead to those consequences, plain and simple.

Let's take another example. If you, let's say, playing Germany have a DP with, for example, Austria and for example Russia DoW against Austria for attacking a CS, let's say Belgrade. This DoW activates the Germany-Austria DP and so Germany DoW against Russia. And no one blamed Germany for the war that came out of this "black week".

Though your real-life example isn't lost on me, in this scenario wouldn't Germany's DP be revoked by Austria's aggression against Belgrade?

 

[DemonMaster]

Agreed. If you want to avoid the penalties that come with being at war, don't do something that might lead to those consequences, plain and simple.



Though your real-life example isn't lost on me, in this scenario wouldn't Germany's DP be revoked by Austria's aggression against Belgrade?

In CiV, I guess that any type of DoW (even against a CS) qualifies for a nullification, so in CiV there would be no DP between Germany and Austria.

My point with the example was that "I had a DP, so I am actually a good guy and can not be blamed for my actions" shouldn't be a valid excuse. If you sign a DP, you better know what kind of guy that is, so it's not a, a, hmm a Godwin

Edit: (sorry The_J for Godwyn)

 

[Can Not]

Bug?
Let's take another example. If you, let's say, playing Germany have a DP with, for example, Austria and for example Russia DoW against Austria for attacking a CS, let's say Belgrade. This DoW activates the Germany-Austria DP and so Germany DoW against Russia. And no one blamed Germany for the war that came out of this "black week".

If you don't want to be dragged into a war, don't sign DPs.

This example rotated the roles a little bit, it's hard for me to relate it to my gameplay experience without confusion.

When Austria DoW on Belgrade, the DP is canceled and Austria will defend itself against Russia alone.

If Austria DoW'd on Belgrade before our DP, then after Russia declares war, I am obligated to defend Austria. This should not have the same diplomatic repercussions as a DoW related to escalating hostile diplomacy or warmongering for obvious and logical reasons. It's kind of like how if some dude was punching your friend, you would not lose all your friends because you made the steps necessary to contain the dude's aggression. What you are saying is that if you did try to contain the dude's aggression, even if you only yelled at him, all your friends should make comments like "I see that you like picking on others... Your day will come." and "Is there no end to your hunger for violence?"

It's called Defense Pact, not Aggression Pact... the diplomatic penalties should reflect that.

Also, if your example is suppose to reflect something in real life, like say WWI, I will let you know why that is completely different. Germany declared war on an additional uninvolved party, France, because all of their battle plans were designed around being at war with Russia and attacking France first. Second, Germany actually sent in troops to fight the people they DoW'd. It would be kind of stupid to compare something that is obvious a defensive arrangement with something that is obviously warmongering.

 

[DemonMaster]

In CiV, I guess that any type of DoW (even against a CS) qualifies for a nullification, so in CiV there would be no DP between Germany and Austria.

My point with the example was that "I had a DP, so I am actually a good guy and can not be blamed for my actions" shouldn't be a valid excuse. If you sign a DP, you better know what kind of guy that is, so it's not a, a, hmm a Godwin

Edit: (sorry The_J for Godwyn)

Can Not: Don't read one post and skip the next.

When I read about CiV players that think it is unfair that they are called warmonger, when they have been attacked, or a DP kicked in, I think it is a little bit laughable.

Why? Because at the same time, I sit there and play the game and is not called warmonger and I fight, I take cities, a hell of a lot more than in any other civ game (I do battle way more than I did in cIV).

To be fair, I am an oldie and also I also have played a lot of war-, diplomatic, strategicgames (boardgames I mean) so perhaps I am used to the idea that if you sign a treaty with someone, you do not get a free card to do atrocities, "finish the aggressor off", "just taking his capital" or something in those lines.

A treaty is just a way to tell all the others that "mess with me and he will help me" and vice versa. It is not (and should not) a get out of jail card.

Instead of complaining about this after each patch/expansion/whatever, perhaps instead start listening to those who know how to work the game. I am not the best person for this perhaps, because I am not a native English speaker, but there are others who are.

 

[Can Not]

I am talking about the diplomatic penalties for DoW against a CS directly as a result of the CS declaring war on your DP partner, as opposed to a DoW related to aggression. I am talking about the penalty of said DoW without a single military conflict. I'm not interested in everyone liking me after I steamroll 6 civs after a DP activates, I'm talking about getting accused of warmongering/aggression and diplomatically punished for there being an indirect DoW in your casual chilling out and relaxing.

 

[DemonMaster]

I am talking about the diplomatic penalties for DoW against a CS directly as a result of the CS declaring war on your DP partner, as opposed to a DoW related to aggression. I am talking about the penalty of said DoW without a single military conflict. I'm not interested in everyone liking me after I steamroll 6 civs after a DP activates, I'm talking about getting accused of warmongering/aggression and diplomatically punished for there being an indirect DoW in your casual chilling out and relaxing.

And don't sign DPs then.
It doesn't matter who DoW on your DP partner, you will still be DoWing the aggressor (being a CS or a regular civ). I doesn't matter if you don't do anything to help your DP friend or not. A CS or regular civ doesn't DoW without reason (perhaps more so regarding CSs). So if you don't like to get a bad label on you, then don't go to to bed with a..... hmm bad people who attracts wars.

My I ask what your DP friend did, to get a DoW from a CS? I mean the only time I have experienced that is pre-x if you have been attacking CSs a lot.

 

[Rick80]

Yes! They are broking a lot for no reason, I have to remake them a lot of times.

 

[Can Not]

I'm actually quite clueless about why Stockholm DoW him, I only know the guy because he got an early caravel to my continent.

 

[DemonMaster]

I'm actually quite clueless about why Stockholm DoW him, I only know the guy because he got an early caravel to my continent.

Hmm, and this is a guy you form a DP with "I only know the guy because he got an early ..."

Perhaps some civs (regular or CS) are just born cranky