Deity Challenge 23 - Bismarck
- Thread starter Maxym
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Deau
Emperor
Yes, it has significantly more luxuries than typical maps. It is similar to earth maps however so you don't get very many "unique" luxuries. Eventually, most civs that expanded have copies of most luxuries you could trade so they become mostly only happiness generator more than anything.
@Glory7 that's a great opener. I wish rng went that well in my game. Something like 6-8 CSs had been taken by AIs by turn 60 in mine adding to happiness issue and reducing the UA effect of barb hunting. Also, Nappy would've fend CBs off with xbows and cavs already on turn 100 -_-.
@Glory7 that's a great opener. I wish rng went that well in my game. Something like 6-8 CSs had been taken by AIs by turn 60 in mine adding to happiness issue and reducing the UA effect of barb hunting. Also, Nappy would've fend CBs off with xbows and cavs already on turn 100 -_-.
I do think that this is exploiting the game at least as bad as pilliging own lux tiles for reselling or any other game mechanic abuse I can imagine.
But as its creative i still like it.
But really at this point of game knowledge its really just about how u can manipulate ai via diplo/trading as much as u can.
I stoped playing the latest gotm for same reason - its just dumb - u dont have to be clever - u just have to know how to abuse ai ...
mp
With all new BNW features coming, I find myself lost interest in G&K quickly.
No cash trading earlier without DoF as the most important feature.
Although stealing workers is effective, I hope to see BNW ai/cs to build a military unit before worker and send the unit to guard the worker every time.
As for bribing, i don't see it as exploit, if the player has developed to have so many resouces to do that. Much heavier diplomatic penalties from every civ for breaking newly signed deals may solve this problem.
No cash trading earlier without DoF as the most important feature.
Although stealing workers is effective, I hope to see BNW ai/cs to build a military unit before worker and send the unit to guard the worker every time.
As for bribing, i don't see it as exploit, if the player has developed to have so many resouces to do that. Much heavier diplomatic penalties from every civ for breaking newly signed deals may solve this problem.
Yes, it's very lame but effective way to get rid of the guy with the biggest army as you can bribe him to DoW anyone. Repeat this a few times during the game and you might have every opponent in war with multiple civs, practically for free.
This raises a BNW question: do we know whether BNW's DOF requirement for lump sum gold trades will also apply to the AI? I assume it will be a game mechanic, not just a restriction on human players. If I'm right, then the AI won't be able to accept lump gold as a bribe to DOW another civ unless they have a DOF with the player offering the bribe -- which also means the bribing party will risk warmonger penalties if they subsequently DOW the bribee (is that a word?) while the DOF is in effect.
Bribes with gpt, lux and strategics will still work, I guess.
Bribes with gpt, lux and strategics will still work, I guess.
Light Cleric
ElCee/LC/El Cid
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I kinda have to agree with the DoW-bribe thing being an exploit, although I gotta admit I've lazily done it a few times myself in later parts of games. I just press "What will makes this work?", the AI asks for gold + lux and I'm too lazy to change it to all gold 
for "Bribe AI to DoW - and DoW him", I have not heard of any rules/comments regarding it to be "exploitive" before this game. I remember that in many threads, including previous DCs, lots of people agreed that bribing AIs to fight against each other is an effective tactic to use.
So the difference becomes 'cancelling deals', but even HoF rules do not ban something like this as long as it does not involve lump sum or if you do a "real" war and capture his capital.
For the worker stealing, not sure about what to say. I think I got like 5-6 workers from Sidon before t90 (wait 2 tiles from lux/resource tiles and get worker when it comes out) and that helped a lot developing a wide empire. I am not sure whether this is "exploit" or not, but at this point I am really tired of this "exploit" discussion stuff.
So what is not "exploit" then? I guess artillery rush or using air repair bombers are exploit too, in that sense. Oh, RA is an exploit too, as you get too much science with low price.
So the difference becomes 'cancelling deals', but even HoF rules do not ban something like this as long as it does not involve lump sum or if you do a "real" war and capture his capital.
For the worker stealing, not sure about what to say. I think I got like 5-6 workers from Sidon before t90 (wait 2 tiles from lux/resource tiles and get worker when it comes out) and that helped a lot developing a wide empire. I am not sure whether this is "exploit" or not, but at this point I am really tired of this "exploit" discussion stuff.
So what is not "exploit" then? I guess artillery rush or using air repair bombers are exploit too, in that sense. Oh, RA is an exploit too, as you get too much science with low price.
I do not play either anymore. I agree with Tommynt that the game atm is not about playing good really, but abusing the AI the most you can.
And gold before DoW is the worst abuse I know about. I wrote a long post about it the general forum some months ago.
My hope is for the BNW.
Glory7 is the only one still playing this competitive now it seems, and he say he did not know that gold before DoW was considered abuse. Haha
And gold before DoW is the worst abuse I know about. I wrote a long post about it the general forum some months ago.
My hope is for the BNW.
Glory7 is the only one still playing this competitive now it seems, and he say he did not know that gold before DoW was considered abuse. Haha
Light Cleric
ElCee/LC/El Cid
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I should clear the air and say I was not knocking what you did; everything is legitimate in single player. I don't do what a lot of players do but I won't knock them for doing something that's in the game, especially someone who's demonstrated that they're way better than me.
Hell, like I said, it's something I've done before to a lesser extent out of sheer laziness. It may have come off that way because I made my post in a hurry. My point was bribing him into all those wars at once and then attacking him probably meant the AI was unable to evaluate how many wars he was getting into at the same time(I've noticed the AI takes 1 turn to really "think" about things like that) and gave the luxuries back.
Again, I did not mean it as an insult. You've played this map(and the other DCs for that matter
) quite well and reading your post actually inspired me to play this map when I wasn't originally going to. The strategy I'm using right now is playing out like yours(only difference is I bought x2 Workers instead of stealing a bunch) and went with Messenger of the Gods, although I miscalculated how badly the AIs would murder the Mercantile CS 
. I may or may not get a religion, it depends how quick the slots fill.well, as long as you play under the same rules, it is a fair game I think.
1. If lump sum before DoW itself is an abuse, you cannot DoW for 30 turns (while the deal last, so 25 turns for quick speed) if you sell any lux/resource and receive lump sum from that guy. Okay, if this is what you meant, one can clearly state this at the beginning and we can play under this.
2. If lump sum itself is abuse (well, you sell lux for 240 gold and upgrade 3 archers to CBs... it's quite "exploit", I think), again, we can agree on this and play under this rule.
3. Or, if lump sum before DoW is okay only if you go on "real" war, meaning that you must capture his cap or half of cities (current HoF rule, if I understand it right), then we can play by this rule. I assume that this is the rule we talk about.
4. Or, like GotM, we can do w/e we want.
As far as I remember, I have played all DCs under rule 3 (HoF) and have not considered it as an abuse. Moreover, I thought this rule was the general understanding.
Yeah don't worry about that exploit talk. Obviously doing it gives one an advantage but you don't even need it. What I like about your games is that you seem to grasp really well what combination of game tactics and strategies to use to get the most leverage out of them. Obviously on such production light map, going for very wide empire to grab all luxes and feed them to the AIs was a great choice. But getting those luxes with free workforce was the masterstroke. And then leverage it into quick conquest before everyone has the same lux and their power wears off.
I am looking toward to seeing you progress and detailed writeup. I will get back to it myself as soon as I finish this shift and get few more caps in GotM63.
@LC I am glad you joined in, hope it will be fun. It did seem different then a standard game and despite adding an additional AI it seems map was bigger than standard and they get to run away a bit. That should make it exciting for Old Peter who always complains about AI not putting up a fight late.
I am looking toward to seeing you progress and detailed writeup. I will get back to it myself as soon as I finish this shift and get few more caps in GotM63.
@LC I am glad you joined in, hope it will be fun. It did seem different then a standard game and despite adding an additional AI it seems map was bigger than standard and they get to run away a bit. That should make it exciting for Old Peter who always complains about AI not putting up a fight late.
If you have got some integlligence u dont need "rules" to see yourself.
But isnt it obvious? Everything which u get for "free" gotta be some kind of exploit. There is nothing free apart air to breeze in this world.
If u have problems understandng wheather an anction might be "exploiting a poorly designed ai" just allways think: Would this action work in multiplayer vs humans?
Does it? Well it should be OK
In addition to the fact that this reply is written in a rude way, I cannot believe that it is You who wrote this. You were the one who showed "tommynt style", blatant DoWs after taking lump sum gold from the very beginning. So you had no intelligence and used those tactics for many games and even uploaded youtube videos?
I think the question "Would this action work in multiplayer vs humans" is the one other players with different opinion used to counter your argument to argue that taking lump sum and DoW should not be allowed and your answer was that single player is different from multiplayer.
And according to that question and what you imply by it, no lump sum trading should be allowed in single player games, right? well, if this has been your playstyle I might understand why you speak in this way, but your previous comments and games clearly show the opposite.
Lastly, lots of previous threads and discussions showed that everyone has difference definitions and opinions regarding "good play" and "exploits". I think you have a serious problem understanding diversity (in other words, people have different views) and the importance of common agreement/rules.
Again, I did not mean it as an insult. You've played this map(and the other DCs for that matter
Do not worry about it - I have never thought your comment to be offensive. I am glad to hear that my post encouraged you to play this map.
For religion, I had to use liberty GP to found one. I built shrines in all cities and had religious CS ally but without faith generating pantheon/NW, faith per turn is too low. Later I met one more religious CS and bought it - then my fpt become 25 (2/3 from CS) and with this low production map (it takes like 20 turns to get a wonder....) getting hagia sophia is not likely too.
And if you do not steal workers, it may take long to improve tiles and set up roads. Or, you can use buy more workers but then you won't have enough money to buy/upgrade units or buy CS... well it depends on the playstyle, I guess.
My comment wasn't made towards you btw, I know it's (the bribe + DoW) been commonly used and falls under the HoF rules. I've done it a few times too and I'm sure others have also. I just don't like it and haven't done it for awhile. I don't mean to take anything away from your games. You've often presented interesting (and effective) strategies and not followed blindly the popular 4 city Tradition CB rush tactic.
No need for anyone to bash glory7 over this. Don't hate the player, hate the game
man come down, there is no problem - you can play whatever and however u like to play. As u have written yourself there are no "rules" prohibiting you ...
But can you deny that a lot off possibilities singleplayer offers are just "dumb" and obviously just there because game is designed bad?
The most obvious thing is the self pilliging and reselling of lux. I guess u dont use this option? At least I have never.
Taking ais gold and then dowing is obviously also abusing the poor ai - but at least it got some negative consequences (like stealing early worker).
And if something is allowed or not allowed under HOFs - I never carred for - its made from some dudes with totaly lacking game knowledge who doesnt even want discussions because he isnt able to discuss. Allowing abuse a and not allowing abuse b - pointless ..
Again all I wanted say and doing it again: At this point of game knowledge (there are x persons who got this knowledge) its 0 about strategies, micro and macro gameplay but all about finding new ways to abuse ai and thats just getting pointless ...
Some tommynt style @ end: Ah and btw if it was about micro and makro gameplay I d allways do best anyway
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