Science Victory works best on Deity. In fact with just tradition and rationalism finisher you can get SV in Deity 90% of the times. Diplo depends a lot on the game.
As for me Domination and CV seem to be the hardest.
Deity Culture Victory Guide
- Thread starter Deau
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Science Victory works best on Deity. In fact with just tradition and rationalism finisher you can get SV in Deity 90% of the times. Diplo depends a lot on the game.
As for me Domination and CV seem to be the hardest.
consentient
Domination!
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Yes, I agree that CV is more luck-dependent and situational than others, however, people like Acken are able to get CVs pretty consistently using principles that are similar (and possibly derived from) this guide.
The religion is not so important if you go full Patronage and get some extra GP from that. I've won CVs with no religion and helped one of the AIs get his into mine; I've won them where I founded my own religion and it didn't really spread; and I've won them where I spread it very wide through war. By far the most reliable way is the first. In the mid game your lands are going to be visited, open borders or not, by a plethora of missionaries. Allow the ones you want to stick their religion in your cities and then boost it a bit. Alternately, if you found one, go for the World Wonder tenet, or something else which boosts faith.
On Deity it's now around 40% harder (very approximate figure based solely on intuition and rough maths) to get a religion than before the patch, and even Stonehenge is a risky strategy, but it's still more reliable in my view than Piety.
The Stonehenge-Trad-Piety combo used by Maddjinn in his India LP is not consistent, I have to say, from my experience.
The most consistent way to get CVs on Deity, for me, is to play with Sweden. Less war, more trade, more GP, more DoF, and you have an option for getting a religion which no other civ has (Holy General). My first CV on Deity was with Sweden, and I've had a few more since. They are much easier than other civs to achieve it with, in my view.
The religion is not so important if you go full Patronage and get some extra GP from that. I've won CVs with no religion and helped one of the AIs get his into mine; I've won them where I founded my own religion and it didn't really spread; and I've won them where I spread it very wide through war. By far the most reliable way is the first. In the mid game your lands are going to be visited, open borders or not, by a plethora of missionaries. Allow the ones you want to stick their religion in your cities and then boost it a bit. Alternately, if you found one, go for the World Wonder tenet, or something else which boosts faith.
On Deity it's now around 40% harder (very approximate figure based solely on intuition and rough maths) to get a religion than before the patch, and even Stonehenge is a risky strategy, but it's still more reliable in my view than Piety.
The Stonehenge-Trad-Piety combo used by Maddjinn in his India LP is not consistent, I have to say, from my experience.
The most consistent way to get CVs on Deity, for me, is to play with Sweden. Less war, more trade, more GP, more DoF, and you have an option for getting a religion which no other civ has (Holy General). My first CV on Deity was with Sweden, and I've had a few more since. They are much easier than other civs to achieve it with, in my view.
Please explain. Is that gifting an early GP (most likely a general) to a religious CS?
stormtrooper412
Peacemongering Turtlesaur
I find it really consistent to win with Brazil, naturally 
All I needed was figuring things out, and not giving up early, because I did struggle a lot like I said
it is only moderately situational as in, you could use all those jungles. However, since Brazil has quite some issues in the early game, production wise, I guess there is a certain amount of trade off involved. Basically:
- no production means no wonders
- no religion because on Deity all religions can be taken as early as turn 50 on Standard. Not saying it's always the case, but it happens
+ carnival starts when you're ready to start catching those runaways
+ no wonders means Great Artists can be burned for MORE carnival
+ carnival means more Great Artists which you burn for MORE carnival
+ carnival means your Brazilwood camps would provide you with A LOT of money. That money can and should be used diplomatically.
you get the point. Basically, this is the gameplan:
1. 4 city Tradition NC
2. grow grow grow
3. Patronage opener would conserve alliances you have with Mercantile CSs
4. Win the world fair so nobody else can, on Deity expect north of 1300 hammers. Make sure everyone else is fighting as many wars as possible as a precaution.
4a. Accept whatever religion is on the menu and save up faith from shrines and temples.
5. Universal Suffrage is basically the only tenet you need, and the only real reason to go Freedom as Brazil. Make sure you have saved up the free carnival and extra Great Artist from the Aesthetics tree after that. If you're there early enough, you can pick up a couple of free tenets and that's always good. It's tricky to time the carnival AFTER this tenet but definitely possible.
6. Ready the free carnival in Liberty, you will probably not need that long a carnival but it's the end game and everything goes. A very useful wonder in this case is the Sidney Opera House, you can use a Great Engineer for it. You are likely to have at least one if you staffed your workshops and factories.
Ok, all set, time to party til the end of time!!!
The international games is not really a high priority for the AI so you can time it to be when your cities are optimal, factories fully staffed, cities railroaded and carnival is up. I won the IG by a landslide, making around 3800 hammers.
You will now have a relatively short window of getting as much great musicians as possible. You should get 5 of them, 3 from guilds and 2 from faith. You should have started building the guild earlier but not finished it, because it would contribute points anyway, and you don't need weak musicians.
I am definitely going to try out a game with Sweden, I'll go Tradition/Patronage/Aesthetics/Order most likely because I really want to see how good is Order in a culture game
All I needed was figuring things out, and not giving up early, because I did struggle a lot like I saidit is only moderately situational as in, you could use all those jungles. However, since Brazil has quite some issues in the early game, production wise, I guess there is a certain amount of trade off involved. Basically:
- no production means no wonders
- no religion because on Deity all religions can be taken as early as turn 50 on Standard. Not saying it's always the case, but it happens
+ carnival starts when you're ready to start catching those runaways
+ no wonders means Great Artists can be burned for MORE carnival
+ carnival means more Great Artists which you burn for MORE carnival
+ carnival means your Brazilwood camps would provide you with A LOT of money. That money can and should be used diplomatically.
you get the point. Basically, this is the gameplan:
1. 4 city Tradition NC
2. grow grow grow
3. Patronage opener would conserve alliances you have with Mercantile CSs
4. Win the world fair so nobody else can, on Deity expect north of 1300 hammers. Make sure everyone else is fighting as many wars as possible as a precaution.
4a. Accept whatever religion is on the menu and save up faith from shrines and temples.
5. Universal Suffrage is basically the only tenet you need, and the only real reason to go Freedom as Brazil. Make sure you have saved up the free carnival and extra Great Artist from the Aesthetics tree after that. If you're there early enough, you can pick up a couple of free tenets and that's always good. It's tricky to time the carnival AFTER this tenet but definitely possible.
6. Ready the free carnival in Liberty, you will probably not need that long a carnival but it's the end game and everything goes. A very useful wonder in this case is the Sidney Opera House, you can use a Great Engineer for it. You are likely to have at least one if you staffed your workshops and factories.
Ok, all set, time to party til the end of time!!!
The international games is not really a high priority for the AI so you can time it to be when your cities are optimal, factories fully staffed, cities railroaded and carnival is up. I won the IG by a landslide, making around 3800 hammers.
You will now have a relatively short window of getting as much great musicians as possible. You should get 5 of them, 3 from guilds and 2 from faith. You should have started building the guild earlier but not finished it, because it would contribute points anyway, and you don't need weak musicians.
I am definitely going to try out a game with Sweden, I'll go Tradition/Patronage/Aesthetics/Order most likely because I really want to see how good is Order in a culture game
consentient
Domination!
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Nice one Stormtrooper. My exact social policies on my best play through were Tradition/Patronage/Aesthetics/Rationalism to Secularism, and Freedom, I think.
stormtrooper412
Peacemongering Turtlesaur
Thanks, it was basically a proof of concept that the Carnival can and turned out that indeed does offset the lack of wonders. I only had Oxford, Hermitage and Museums staffed with great works, and a grand total of 1 landmark in my territory. If the Great Artist's secondary ability was anything other than a free Carnival, those would have been more than useless. Of course, once you make two great writings (for Oxford), it's better to save up the writers for an occasional free policy. And on Deity, EVERYTHING counts
Yes, that is what he was referring to. Take Warrior Code in Honor and get a free Great General (and +50% generation rate for more GGs). Gift the GG to a religious CS for 90 influence, which should translate to 30 (or so) turns of ally faith and another 30 turns of friendship faith (each of which can be extended by satisfying other quests, killing barbs on their borders, etc.). Combine with a few shrines and you should be able to found a religion, even on Deity.
Now, does it really make sense to burn two policies in Honor to get a religion? That is certainly debatable.
stormtrooper412
Peacemongering Turtlesaur
I would have to say, no, it's not worth it on Deity
Acken
Deity
I don't have the numbers but I'm pretty sure it's not. I 99% doubt 90influence in a cultural CS is worth 2 policies and a slow start. Unless you have a use for honor after that of course.
Back of the napkin math:
Early CS ally for 30 turns, Friend for 30 is: 30x6cpt + 30x3cpt = 270.
So that is right in the ballpark of the cost of going from 5th to 6th SP.
Net: It only gets you half of what you need to make up in the short term.
Early CS ally for 30 turns, Friend for 30 is: 30x6cpt + 30x3cpt = 270.
So that is right in the ballpark of the cost of going from 5th to 6th SP.
Net: It only gets you half of what you need to make up in the short term.
Acken
Deity
It's even worth than that because policy costs are not linear, they have a cost that is proportional to k^a where a>1 and k is your number of policies so increasing your policy number by 2 before getting your normal policies means you'll pay more and more for the same policies.
I may be wrong on this, but technically in a fixed length game, isn't there a cap on the maximum amount of policies that you can get in a game? Getting a culture ally would only make you get the policies earlier, but not necessarily give you extra policies in the entire game. maybe if you're siam, you can get 2 extra policies in the end.
as a side note, poland is untouchable.
as a side note, poland is untouchable.
Absolutely, so by picking up a couple policies in Honor, you are ultimately missing out on a couple tenants in an ideology. But I think the more significant opportunity cost, in both the short and long term, is closing out Tradition or Liberty latter.
consentient
Domination!
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First of all, you are all admitting that it's hard to get a religion on Deity, and also saying that having a religion makes CV WAY easier. Then, when I tell you that one civ has a way of getting a religion (not every time) that no other civ has, you're all concentrating only on the negatives.
Secondly, in a CV game, finishing Tradition (don't know why you'd go Liberty unless you're going for a warring CV, in which case Honor is great) doesn't have to be rushed. Using food trades and prioritising growth can be done without the Tradition finisher, which can come along much later, no problem.
Also, people complain about those occasions when they can't time Renaissance and Rationalism together. Sure, I like Patronage/Consulates as much as the next guy, but seriously, a couple of policies in Honor are cheaper than you think, especially if you go around killing stuff to push through to the 2nd and 3rd policy. If you want to rely on your starting warrior and shrewd diplomacy to get you through the game, you won't want to build other units, but if you build some units and train them on barbs, it's a pretty good defence until later, as well.
Warring CV is easier though, anyway
Secondly, in a CV game, finishing Tradition (don't know why you'd go Liberty unless you're going for a warring CV, in which case Honor is great) doesn't have to be rushed. Using food trades and prioritising growth can be done without the Tradition finisher, which can come along much later, no problem.
Also, people complain about those occasions when they can't time Renaissance and Rationalism together. Sure, I like Patronage/Consulates as much as the next guy, but seriously, a couple of policies in Honor are cheaper than you think, especially if you go around killing stuff to push through to the 2nd and 3rd policy. If you want to rely on your starting warrior and shrewd diplomacy to get you through the game, you won't want to build other units, but if you build some units and train them on barbs, it's a pretty good defence until later, as well.
Warring CV is easier though, anyway
Cromagnus
Deity
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Well, it's not concentrating on the negatives IMHO, it's just acknowledging the opportunity cost of sinking two policies into the least effective policy tree. What you *lose* by doing that outweighs what you gain. (Usually)
Also, if you're going warlike you don't need the free general, you'll get one naturally. Finishing Tradition ASAP is always worth it in anything but a speed domination game. Growth + Happiness = science, so. It's not just how quickly you finish Tradition. It's the fact that you're delaying Secularism by 30-40 turns. Well-timed Secularism with Oracle, combined with Early education, is HUGE. And social policies come *really* slow after you have 8 policies. Until World's Fair/Modern Era. Or 2 policies in Commerce for warlike games. Now you're one policy from Mercantilism, and the sooner you finish Commerce the better.
In a vacuum, or for speed domination/culture games, the Honor/Sweden combo is cool. But otherwise, it's not worth what you're giving up.
Also, if you're going warlike you don't need the free general, you'll get one naturally. Finishing Tradition ASAP is always worth it in anything but a speed domination game. Growth + Happiness = science, so. It's not just how quickly you finish Tradition. It's the fact that you're delaying Secularism by 30-40 turns. Well-timed Secularism with Oracle, combined with Early education, is HUGE. And social policies come *really* slow after you have 8 policies. Until World's Fair/Modern Era. Or 2 policies in Commerce for warlike games. Now you're one policy from Mercantilism, and the sooner you finish Commerce the better.
In a vacuum, or for speed domination/culture games, the Honor/Sweden combo is cool. But otherwise, it's not worth what you're giving up.
stormtrooper412
Peacemongering Turtlesaur
Actually, having a religion does not really make a CV WAY easier. The religious perks you'd have from a founded religion are, well, secondary (since by the time your religion is up, you'd only have Tithe available and maybe a useful follower perk), and it's unlikely that on Deity your religion would spread far enough to be culturally relevant in the long run. It's obviously situational meaning don't rely on it. It's more likely that you'll be accepting the religion of a neighbor and have a "shared religion" tourism modifier that way. I suppose the World Religion resolution is a good topic, but I've read many opinions that it's hardly essential and you can definitely win without it.
The whole point of a cultural game is to lay the groundworks while playing sciency and just boom everything in 10-20 turns after you got Internet, National Visitor Center, International Games and if needed, Airports
The whole point of a cultural game is to lay the groundworks while playing sciency and just boom everything in 10-20 turns after you got Internet, National Visitor Center, International Games and if needed, Airports
The reason I am saying that Stonehenge might be an option is because apart from faith(no need to open piety for religion) it gives one great engineer point. This leads to a GE at less than T150. This means you can grab Sistine Chapel/Uffizi(if there are aesthetic civs).
In my France Game, I used another faith bought GE to get the Eiffel Tower and used the rest of the faith to buy 2 GMs.
Also another thing that I wanted to know is how many cities are most effective when going for CV. I usually go for 4 in nearly all my Deity games whether it is SV/DV/CV. However it seems that the 4th city is not needed as I find it difficult to build Universities/Opera Houses there for the Ox or Hermitage.
Also how big is your capital/first expo at the end of the CV game and what are the bare minimum wonders you need to win CV?
(In both france/Poland game I was lucky and got SH/Oracle/Sistine/Uffizi/Louvre/Eiffel Tower and Statue of Liberty.)
In my France Game, I used another faith bought GE to get the Eiffel Tower and used the rest of the faith to buy 2 GMs.
Also another thing that I wanted to know is how many cities are most effective when going for CV. I usually go for 4 in nearly all my Deity games whether it is SV/DV/CV. However it seems that the 4th city is not needed as I find it difficult to build Universities/Opera Houses there for the Ox or Hermitage.
Also how big is your capital/first expo at the end of the CV game and what are the bare minimum wonders you need to win CV?
(In both france/Poland game I was lucky and got SH/Oracle/Sistine/Uffizi/Louvre/Eiffel Tower and Statue of Liberty.)
Religion is not necessary, but you need faith generation; and that depends a lot on luck on which AIs decide to spread to your cities; if you get a religion that has zero faith generation and have no religious CS, chances are you're going to be missing out on a few faith-bought GP.
You can also found a religion but keep it only in your holy city (for divine inspiration and your selected pantheon, if anything) while letting your other cities take another AIs religion for the shared religion bonuses.
IG is extremely unreliable unlike WF since AIs consistently put effort into it, winning it on deity relies on no AIs not being able to make/conquer 30 cities and crush you in the hammers department.
With those wonders, it's quite overkill. Out of Sistine, Uffizi and Louvre if you can get 1 of them it's quite OK already (louvre being the easiest to get) unless you have a culture monster in your game making 50-70k culture at t300.
Getting lucky with landmarks around your NVC city (probably your capitol)/UIs such as Moai clumps, plays a much bigger factor than an extra theming wonder or two.
My cap is usually at least 35 to 40+... and all expos 30+; I got 3 cities most of the time (you need some leeway into developing infrastructure and the 4th city kinda forces you to trade lux for lux rather than lux for gold/bribes.
