Deity Plus 1 Classic Succession Game 2

Go ahead and finish them off Duke - Off with their heads!

All set for D+2! I'm wondering if we may wish to restrict ourselves in one area - and that's bribing. It's such a huge advantage for the human player. Perhaps we can go with bribing units but no bribing entire cities...

Will there be a 'mole' this game????....
 
City bribes bad. Unit bribes good. Ok, I've got it. Same rules as the Demo-game.

The mole idea sounds like fun. We could either have an outsider pick someone to do it, or perhaps we can just say it can be done once and only once but until that happens each player has the option to either play nice or be the one to play the Bizarro Turn.

Will there be any limits on what the mole can do?
 
Interesting Notes:

I don't know if anyone else has developed this amusing -- a rather cruel -- joke to play on an AI civ. It represents another use of the Spy as an offensive weapon.

Step 1: Investigate City with Spy.
 

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Step 2a: Destroy factory, and occupy all Shield producing squares.

Step 2b: Withdraw from Shield producing squares as prudent; note that in this particular case, I "occupied" the second forest square with our citizen from Odense.
 

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And viola! Next turn Gordiums garrison has been reduced to one Alpine brigade. Not a bad trade off: one Spy for four Alpine and two Rifle brigades. (The Pasargadae Cannons lost out to the fortified rifles).

I noticed this phenomenon in my one successful game at D+5; I was up against a garrison of about 22 Alpine brigades defending one of those size 120 AI cities and, as a cruel joke, I didn't employ my howitzers but destroyed the factory and occupied all the shield squares. What was interesting is when I didn't take the city on the next turn, and tried to send some freight into the city on the following turn, I didn't seem to get enough money in return. Upon investigating the city, I discovered that after one pulls this trick, the AI city "recovers" its squares at a rate of one per turn.

In this game, I pulled this trick against both Gordium and Tarsus; the ten units I "destroyed" with this method allowed me to conserve the limited number of Artillery I had available against the Persians. Consequently, I was able to shorten the conquest of Persia by at least two turns by not having to wait for my artillery to recover from their attacks.

[By the way, can any tell me how to post multiple images in the same post?]
 

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And the other Interesting Notes:

My reliance on Howitzers has promoted a somewhat narrow focus in my games by not allowing me some of the opportunities available to players. My use of Marines against Kohlapur and Karachi is an example of this. It has been ages since I've built Marines; with only one movement point, I've really treated them with a degree of disdain. But in this game, I found a use for them that demonstrated that I underestimated their unique ability to conduct amphibious assaults. One thing with the Emissaries Ploy is that if you haven't engaged the enemy in a number of turns, first contact between land units will often prompt the AI's offer of a Cease Fire and the Senate's notorious interference. I've long been aware that Spies and Freight in transports can investigate cities/establish trade routes without prompting land contact; but if they land first, this will prompt the contact between land units leading to the AI's offer of a Cease Fire. So I decided to see if the same held for Marines making amphibious assaults; it seemed like a good gamble in order to maintain our Battleships at full strength. And sure enough, Marine making amphibious assaults from Transports do not initiate contact between land units that trigger Cease Fire offers from the AI. Also, having employed so many, it occured to me that in one sense, Marines in transports, especially with ship-chaining, have the comparable "cost-effectiveness" as Battleships attacking cities; and unlike Battleships, they aren't effected by Coastal Fortresses. I'm going to have to look for more opportunities to use ship-chained Marines instead of Battleships in future games.

Originally posted by TimTheEnchanter
If we do manage to get the UN, someone (Andu?) will have to teach me how to do the "emissary's ploy." I've never actually been in a situation where I felt I needed to use it and rarely do I have games where the UN even gets built, so I've never tried it.

Tim: the main thing about the Emissary's Ploy is that whenever you take a city as Democracy with the UN, first contact between land units (on land, apparently) will prompt the opposing Civ to send an offer for a Cease Fire, thus allowing the Senate to ruin a perfectly good campaign. But, with the UN, if you immediately access the Foreign Advisor menu (F3) and send an emissary to the AI before the AI sends an emissary to you, the AI will respond with "Enough of Your Chatter. Begone." This "short-circuits" the normal diplomatic routine. Of course, this becomes trickier once the AI civs have communism; it becomes necessary to "quarentine" all squares immediately adjacent to the city to prevent Partisans from initiating contact before you can send that emissary.

One other interesting note: this is the first time I've ever been able to get Mobile Warfare one turn and been able to turn Veteran Howitzers loose upon the enemy the very next turn. I once did a calculation that the SSC performs the function of four cities (of identical terrain). By rush building SETI in a city far enough down the City List, and building Superhighways, Libraries, and Universities in our five best cities, I was able to effect two advances in a single turn. By having Mobile Warfare "acquired" by freight deliveries, I was able to have seventeen Barracks built on the same turn that Mobile Warfare rendered all barracks obsolete; and with SETI rush built on the same turn, I had just enough to acquire Robotics so that I could rush build Howitzers to employ the most turn.

It was most gratifying to bring those Howitzers to bear against the Indians. And sorry about taking out the Indians instead of leaving them for someone else; I kind of had the need to get some aggression out of my system and the Indians became my punching bag.:mischief:
 
After surviving attacks from a couple Babylonian naval vessels, including an attack on our transport by a destroyer, the turn continues. Many newly captured cities are coming out of their initial disorder and a few others enter into WLTLD celebrations.

We discover Combined Arms and Nuclear Fission, and then start Nuclear Power.

1818 AD We land a recon team on the main Babylonian continent. It scouts out the cities and existing rail system, while securing a fortified position near their capital. The combat engineers that accompanied the team starts to build more need rail systems for the pending invasion.

Naval actions eliminate all visible Babylonian combat surface ships.

Transports are scare on the front lines, so more are being rush built to accommodate the troops we have waiting on the opposite shore. Crippled Artillery units are sent to the rear to repair in the nearby barracks.

Freight deliveries are made across the map to provide a cash and science boost.

Rush buying happens all over the map.

The Babylonians attack with a submarine and lose again. They land a lone Calvary on our contient.

Nuclear power discovered to help speed our ships. Recycling also discovered. Rocketry started.


1820 AD Troops flood onto the Babylonian continent via the newly purchased transports. All known Babylonian cities on this continent have been emptied of troops.

With the fate of the Babylonians all but done, troops that were being moved up to the front lines are being disbanded to aid in the rush buying of various city improvements.

Spies that were otherwise sitting idle practiced their skills of sabotaging a Babylonian Submarine and Transport. Both units are now left crippled off our coast.

Over in Barb country, a cruiser attacks a stack of Barbs to find that there were 95 units in the square, all of whom were destroyed.




1822 AD Babylon captured, capital moved to Ashur. Ashur captured. Ellipi Captured. Nineveh Captured. Ur Captured. We now own all Wonders that have been built.

Babylonians have dropped to Communism. :D

1824 AD Eridu found and purchased. Uruk purchased. The Babylonians are now down to one inland city (Samarra) that has an Alpine trooper and a wandering Calvary unit. Two full transports are being sent over to make sure the city is ‘secure’. ;)

Every city that has at least one shield is rush built.

1826 AD Some last minute Barbs slapping happens. Our lone Cruiser takes out another stack of Barbs and takes 89 more Barb units off the map. Cities prepared for end turn score boost. Last Babylonian city is purchased.



Last Babylonian City:


Game ends.

Powergraph: Interesting how it doesn’t reflect our slight downturn in the game.


Final Score:


Score Summary:


I could have spent another turn or two building the last Wonders and letting the cities grow more, but there didn't seem to be much point to it. As it was, I got the population to jump from 38.5 million to 64.5 million people.
 
Fun while it lasted, all! Great game. Looking forward to another.

The mole idea would be more interesting if it was someone elected from outside the game. It would add a bit of intrigue to each player's ending for they'd have to be careful about leaving stuff open. Also, the mole would have to choose carefully - too early a strike may not cause enough damage, while too late may be... well... too late. We should only ask that the mole leaves the game with SOMETHING to get back to. It would be harsh if they struck while we had one city and lost it on purpose to the barbs or to an enemy...

I'd like to revisit the whole civ-splitting deal. I lost the capital (at least the city where I had finished rush-building a palace) when we were well above everyone else on the power graph, and our civilization never split. I went back to that point in history and tried other things, and each time there was no split. I should do some research, but I'm very, very lazy so I'm hoping one of the experts here can run down for me (and all future moles) what must be involved for a civ split...
 
Duke, Andu, all, -- great game. Different subtleties at different stages.

Regarding “shield starvation”, I thought that that was a standard trick -- I usually practice it about once or twice a game. For me it is a way to use the rifles & other weaker combat units in a semi-productive capacity, or take out a tough nut when my forces don’t have the punch power. I’ve also noted that the ai sometimes has reasonable units fortified when surrounded but doesn’t unfortify them for attack -- I’ve also seen ‘visiting’ units get disbanded & even some stupid ai decisions (a city had six units with four shaded shields -- next turn all that was left was an engineer & a transport -- the alpine & three rifles were gone.
 
Originally posted by Old n Slow
D+2? Count me in. As for the choice of opponents, the list is fine, but I have a question. What sort of civs would put the higher pressure on science & wonder building? The Vikes will, the Mongols & Zulus much less so as Far as I can tell.

Perhaps a good question. I think that all civs place an equal value on building Wonders; but the preference for Wonders is determined by the value attached to the Civ Advance requisite for that wonder. I.e, when given the option to change wonders, a militaristic civilization will opt for the Lighthouse or the Colossus over the Hanging Gardens or the Pyramids; and a civilzed civilization will opt for the reverse.

It is probably worth noting that expansionist civs, while capable of establishing more cities than perfectionist civs, they also tend to research Sanitation/build Sewer Systems later than their perfectionist counterparts.

Originally posted by TimTheEnchanter
City bribes bad. Unit bribes good. Ok, I've got it. Same rules as the Demo-game.

The mole idea sounds like fun. We could either have an outsider pick someone to do it, or perhaps we can just say it can be done once and only once but until that happens each player has the option to either play nice or be the one to play the Bizarro Turn.

Will there be any limits on what the mole can do?

Originally posted by Kev
The mole idea would be more interesting if it was someone elected from outside the game. It would add a bit of intrigue to each player's ending for they'd have to be careful about leaving stuff open. Also, the mole would have to choose carefully - too early a strike may not cause enough damage, while too late may be... well... too late. We should only ask that the mole leaves the game with SOMETHING to get back to. It would be harsh if they struck while we had one city and lost it on purpose to the barbs or to an enemy...

No city bribes is my usual preference; I generally play under the late-game limitation whereby I'll only bribe a city if I know that a military conquest will result in the destruction of the city. Generally: the nasty Persians established the city of Tyre on the very turn I planned for their destruction; fortunately an irrigating Engineer gave away its location. And we might as well go with the No Re-homing Option for Caravans/Freights to limit the Human Players proficiency at exploiting trade.

As for the mole: I agree that it should be randomly selected by a third party; and some limits should be established. I was thinking in terms of a "time-frame." No earlier than the building of Mike's Chapel; while playing without Mike's Chapel would indeed be a challenge, at D+2, it might also present a futile effort to catch up after falling behind in the opening game. At the other extreme, if we give the AI the spaceship option, providing those techs to the AI player while we remain in Bloodlust mode might bring a "premature" end to our game. So, perhaps before Space Flight?

Originally posted by Kev I'd like to revisit the whole civ-splitting deal. I lost the capital (at least the city where I had finished rush-building a palace) when we were well above everyone else on the power graph, and our civilization never split. I went back to that point in history and tried other things, and each time there was no split. I should do some research, but I'm very, very lazy so I'm hoping one of the experts here can run down for me (and all future moles) what must be involved for a civ split...

Yes, this is problematic. Perhaps it is impossible to split the Human player's civilization.
 
Originally posted by Old n Slow
For me it is a way to use the rifles & other weaker combat units in a semi-productive capacity, or take out a tough nut when my forces don’t have the punch power.

Exactly. It's just that about every reference to spies in the tips section suggests destroying city walls instead of factories, with the consequent loss of population. Destroying city walls is probably better for dips; but shield starvation should be the preferred method for spies.
 
Originally posted by Andu Indorin

As for the mole: I agree that it should be randomly selected by a third party; and some limits should be established. I was thinking in terms of a "time-frame." No earlier than the building of Mike's Chapel; while playing without Mike's Chapel would indeed be a challenge, at D+2, it might also present a futile effort to catch up after falling behind in the opening game.
From my (still rather limited) D+2 experience there is a strong probability that we will not be able to build Mike ahead of the AI on a large map. In my current game I have never had the choice to build a single wonder because once I've acquired the relevant tech (usually from my ally) the AI has already built the wonder. Mike has not been built though but it will soon happen and hardly by me.

The reason is that due to the very slow growth at the start and the big map (59x169) I've met only one civ (my allies the Greeks) so I've been unable to get gifts or steal/exchange techs from anyone except the Greeks.

I agree that the mole should be randomly selected by a third party and we probably need some rules for the mole. I'm not sure it should be allowed to strike until considerable time after Mike is built, whether it's an AI civ that build it or not.
 
I went back to the 160 ad save and, through the Cheat Menu, I was able to effect the split of all five Civs by Viking Crusaders. However, when I allowed the Barbarians to capture Trondheim, the Viking civ did not split. I then, using the Set Human Player function, allowed the Barbarians to capture the other five Civs, but with the Human player set for those civs. In each case, no split of the civs. From this, I think that we can confidently state that the Human civ cannot be split.

All other tests were inconclusive, except one that more or less determined that there must be 5 cities for a AI civ to split (four remaining after capture of the captial).
 
I was assuming Andu would start a new D+2 game since he had lots of ideas for how to make it more challenging/interesting. Was I misunderstanding something ? I'd be interested in a new game soon (before the end of this month).

As an example of the mess one can get into in a D+2 game I'm posting a save from a game I'm playing. The situation in 1834 AD wasn't pretty, I hadn't managed to build a single wonder and contacted powerful AI civs with lots of techs (the Indians) far too late. This is on a 59x169 map (169 pole to pole), with IIRC normal landmass etc.

Here is this particular save.

So I started building a big military and invaded Persia in 1910 AD using 74 units (howitzers, spies, engineers, ships, tanks, planes etc.):



As should be obvious I planted a few nuclear devices as I suspect at least two of us here would love to do in a succession game :D
 
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