Denmark - Completely useless or...?

[FinsT]

If Denmark isn't the worst, who is?

...

Apparently, nobody is "worst". As far as i can guess - can be mistaken. Again, it's situational. Look at it this way: what's the "worst screwdriver"? There is no "worst" screwdriver, because you need different ones - smaller and bigger, straight or crossed, etc, - for different kinds of job. Same with civs as far as i can tell. Didn't check all of them though. May be there is one which is a big loser always - even in any theoretical situations tailored for it as much as possible? If so, that one would be worst, but i doubt it exists in the game.

 

[azzaman333]

Apparently, nobody is "worst". As far as i can guess - can be mistaken. Again, it's situational. Look at it this way: what's the "worst screwdriver"? There is no "worst" screwdriver, because you need different ones - smaller and bigger, straight or crossed, etc, - for different kinds of job. Same with civs as far as i can tell. Didn't check all of them though. May be there is one which is a big loser always - even in any theoretical situations tailored for it as much as possible? If so, that one would be worst, but i doubt it exists in the game.

Denmark is the screwdriver that doesn't fit any screws.

 

[FinsT]

No, it fits some; just that those screws are extremely rare in standard settings, which was exactly my initial point in this topic.

 

[azzaman333]

No, it fits some; just that those screws are extremely rare in standard settings, which was exactly my initial point in this topic.

Except even when everything falls into place, they're still outclassed.

 

[Cromagnus]

Denmark is awesome. For Domination. Or Domination-assisted Science/Cultural/Diplomatic victories. For pure science/etc., they're bottom-tier. And on certain Pangaeas they can be less than ideal. Even then, Berserkers make awesome meatshields for your siege weapons.

But, in Continents/Archipelago or any Pangaea map with a lot of coastline... Denmark are bad-ass. Berserkers are amazing. Siege weapons are actually better than CBs because you can move and attack in the same turn. You can surprise-attack and take a capital in one turn! Absolute pwnage, especially after Astronomy. Cannons that can land, move, set up *and* fire in one turn? Game over.

Catapults are strength 24 vs cities, for the same hammers as a composite bowman, which is strength 11 vs cities. Normally the ability to move and fire makes CBs totally superior. And frankly, you still want a few to support your siege units. But catapults take cities more than twice as fast as CBs. 3-4 siege units can nuke down a city in one turn. Which is enough that you can surprise attack and capture in one turn... *if you're Denmark*.

And you can invade with just a few caravels for support, meaning that you don't have to wait for Navigation. As soon as you hit Astronomy, you can invade the other continent.

Pottery->Archery->Animal Husbandry->Mining->Bronzeworking->Writing->Philosophy->Mathematics->Engineering->Metal Casting->Physics->Astronomy->Victory...

I suppose you could throw in Education and Chemistry, or go all the way to Steam Power. Or go for a CB rush. But Denmark is more fun with Berserkers and Trebuchet.

And their UU abilities stack. Berserkers you promote into Norwegian Ski Infantry are truly bad-ass.

But, wait a second, you say, on Pangaea cities aren't always coastal, and sometimes on Continents they aren't either. And that bonus to movement in snow and tundra is so pointless!

Well, let me paint a picture. Your NSI is sitting just offshore. You land, and have 5/2 moves left. (2 embarked moves, +1 for Denmark, +1 for Astronomy, +1 for Steam Power, +1 for Exploration)

So now you can move 5 tiles. Except, you have double movement in hills, snow or tundra. So you can actually move as many as 10 times in one turn. Coastal invasion is totally viable for cities that aren't even coastal, unless they're way inland.

But what about that snow and tundra crap? Still useless, right?

Ah, but that's where Denmark shines on Pangaea. You're trying to invade from the coast on a giant landmass. So, you follow that coast around... until you reach *snow and tundra*. Now you can surprise attack any city near the top or bottom of the map.

Movement rate is *everything* in Domination. Once you accept that, you can finally be happy taking over the world. Denmark. It's what's for dinner.

 

[adwcta]

In medieval and Renaissance, it usually takes no more than 2-3 turns to take a city. It takes Denmark 1-2. It takes roughly the same amount of turns for travel. This is their only bonus. NSI and berserkers move well over half the map. Unfortunately, there's another half of the map. Nothing has actual damage bonus. No upkeep or production bonus either, so your army size will be the same as Mongolia... Without its UU.

The speed is not terribly important unless your playing standard speed on a huge map, in which case the lack of coastline will be even more damning. Denmark needs small continents or large island maps to be a mid tier domination civ, still worse than england, china, america, ethiopia and ottoman. Questionably better than Japan. Likely better than Huns, Zulu, Mongolia, and Germany. And this is their zenith! When you make all conditions absolutely favorable to them... They are okay at one victory condition.

So very bad.

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[ravenmagus]

Likely better than Huns, Zulu, Mongolia, and Germany.

I pick Zulu for top tier domination in just about any case. Even if they don't get to use impis the experience bonus is really, really good.

edit: Just as an example, Autocracy + Brandenburg Gate Zulus can just flat out produce Logistics Artillery.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

On pangea
Huns is probably acctually the top Domination Civ because it can have its UU out so early and its UA helps too with early domination strategies.

Zulus take some time.

On Continents, Probably Denmark because its can attack other sea so well its rediculus.

On very water heavy map, Probably England because of its navy.

So if Denmark is the best conquest civ on atleast one map type its not bad

 

[Cromagnus]

Denmark doesn't take cities 1 turn faster, they take them 10-15 turns faster. (In some cases)

Here's why. Normally, you DoW an AI then chew through his units for 5-10 turns before you can even attack the city. With Denmark, you can cap the city on the turn you DoW, and chew through their troops from a very defensible position until they make peace, (if it's the capital) or until all their units are dead, at which point you attack the capital.

So, instead of having to fight your way in through enemy territory, you get a beachhead base of operations in one of your enemy's own cities. At a minimum, this works on Pangaea for the first two coastal neighbors, and the two AI on the other coast. Usually you get one more AI with a coastal approach. And at least 3 of these can be one-turn capital captures. 5 of your seven opponents go down *fast*. The momentum from this is significant. And momentum is everything.

You do have to take the time to chew through each enemy's forces though, to some degree. If you just take the capital without killing units, they'll attack again 10 turns after you make peace.

If you haven't actually completed a domination game with Denmark, then you probably don't fully appreciate their power. I've done it on Islands, Continents, Pangaea and Archipelago. Archipelago is where Denmark REALLY shines. They can wipe out the map so fast. Hmmmm. May have to suggest a Denmark Pangaea Diety challenge game just to demonstrate this, since there appear to be a lot of unbelievers.

 

[BBMorti]

Denmark doesn't take cities 1 turn faster, they take them 10-15 turns faster. (In some cases)

Here's why. Normally, you DoW an AI then chew through his units for 5-10 turns before you can even attack the city. With Denmark, you can cap the city on the turn you DoW, and chew through their troops from a very defensible position until they make peace, (if it's the capital) or until all their units are dead, at which point you attack the capital.

So, instead of having to fight your way in through enemy territory, you get a beachhead base of operations in one of your enemy's own cities. At a minimum, this works on Pangaea for the first two coastal neighbors, and the two AI on the other coast. Usually you get one more AI with a coastal approach. And at least 3 of these can be one-turn capital captures. 5 of your seven opponents go down *fast*. The momentum from this is significant. And momentum is everything.

You do have to take the time to chew through each enemy's forces though, to some degree. If you just take the capital without killing units, they'll attack again 10 turns after you make peace.

If you haven't actually completed a domination game with Denmark, then you probably don't fully appreciate their power. I've done it on Islands, Continents, Pangaea and Archipelago. Archipelago is where Denmark REALLY shines. They can wipe out the map so fast. Hmmmm. May have to suggest a Denmark Pangaea Diety challenge game just to demonstrate this, since there appear to be a lot of unbelievers.

On an archipelago map it will be ships that will be used, and water maps are sub 200 turn win easy, in any case. It wont be a map where you swim some catas over sea and send in some land invasion.

In any case you make it sound like it is as easy as that to simply swim to an enemy coastal capital and land a few catas and take the capital in a few turns. They normally spam ships, you know, if they are coastal. You also have to Dow outside their culture border water tiles, and then swim in to land, through their ships. I don't see you taking a capital in one turn that way in most cases, unless you have a big navy.. which makes the Denmark factor pointless.

 

[Fallen_Kings]

Denmark is awesome. For Domination. Or Domination-assisted Science/Cultural/Diplomatic victories.

Can't agree more.

Even in maps without oceans,Denmark is viable for two reasons

1."No cost for pillage" is a huge adventage which alone makes Denmark impressive.In peacetime, you could raze some cities you captured with tiles fully improved and do pillage&repair on those tiles to earn considerable gold.A single chariot could pillage 4 tiles which means 60GPT.In time of war,operations like move-pillage-attack and pillage-move-pillage give Dennish soldiers 25 more HP in average.

2.Berserker has 3 movement,as you have mentioned.Besides,it only requires Metal Casting to produce in BNW,instead of Steel,this means you could have about 10 more turns of military superiority,and save your beakers for more important technology.

 

[JeSuisNapoleon]

Thanks Cromagnus, for quantifying the reason(s) Denmark is perfectly viable for domination.

I have never understood the hate/dislike of the Vikings. Hands free Harold has such mobile armies. The pillagin' powerhouse is tremendously fun to play, and I think very good on archipelago maps.

The speed at which you can land large armies and move inland is very significant, and when done right you can capture an inland city before re-enforcements can arrive.

 

[Memoryjar]

All civs are suitable for all victory conditions. It's just a few or a lot of turn early for a civ with specific UA, UU or UB.
Denmark is hard to play (specially for me) but seems powerful for pure dom or other conditions with dom. It's just some games to learn how. So many people, like me, though Denmark is useless. You just can play them with Tradition-Some stuff-Rationalism peaceful game.

For my part, what I hate with Denmark is that you need to have optics to use fully their UA. But it's also true for Indonesia. With UA like Polynesia, they should see more powerful, that mean easy to play.

 

[Cromagnus]

If you're not playing on Immortal or higher, Domination is easy with every civ. So really for me the discussion is simply "Is Denmark viable on Deity?". I know for others it's not that way, but here's my point: Everyone wants to talk about how much more effective CB rush is. And yet, how many of you have actually cleared a map that way? For those of you who've tried, did it work the first time? Or did you have to refine your build order, tactics, overall strategy, scouting, diplomacy a LOT before it worked?

And yet people will give up on alternative methods if it isn't easy the first time, stating it's inferior. I personally have found Denmark to be extremely powerful in Domination *when properly used*, and I know from experience that the *when properly used* thing applies to a CB rush too.

Also, CB rush works for Denmark too, except their meatshields are more effective, and once you get Logistics, you can land, fire, fire, and retreat to the sea all in one turn. I did say that I use CBs to support my catapults...

As for someone having a navy, yes that is a risk. Not an insurmountable one. By the time you're invading the other continent, you have extra moves, so can usually time it so there's a lane to swim right onto land next to the capital without resistance. And before then, well, naval units make great XP for your ranged and siege units.

I think people generally don't want to invest the time to figure out how to win in a new way, because guides are easier to follow. You can absolutely win in Civ with a traditional swordsmen/catapult rush with ANY Civ. It's not as easy as heavily upgraded CBs but it is possible. You won't complete the map before you get to Artillery, most likely, but um, your Artillery will be pretty boss when you do upgrade to them.

 

[adwcta]

If you're not playing on Immortal or higher, Domination is easy with every civ. So really for me the discussion is simply "Is Denmark viable on Deity?". I know for others it's not that way, but here's my point: Everyone wants to talk about how much more effective CB rush is. And yet, how many of you have actually cleared a map that way? For those of you who've tried, did it work the first time? Or did you have to refine your build order, tactics, overall strategy, scouting, diplomacy a LOT before it worked?

And yet people will give up on alternative methods if it isn't easy the first time, stating it's inferior. I personally have found Denmark to be extremely powerful in Domination *when properly used*, and I know from experience that the *when properly used* thing applies to a CB rush too.

Also, CB rush works for Denmark too, except their meatshields are more effective, and once you get Logistics, you can land, fire, fire, and retreat to the sea all in one turn. I did say that I use CBs to support my catapults...

As for someone having a navy, yes that is a risk. Not an insurmountable one. By the time you're invading the other continent, you have extra moves, so can usually time it so there's a lane to swim right onto land next to the capital without resistance. And before then, well, naval units make great XP for your ranged and siege units.

I think people generally don't want to invest the time to figure out how to win in a new way, because guides are easier to follow. You can absolutely win in Civ with a traditional swordsmen/catapult rush with ANY Civ. It's not as easy as heavily upgraded CBs but it is possible. You won't complete the map before you get to Artillery, most likely, but um, your Artillery will be pretty boss when you do upgrade to them.

No one's saying you can't win on dirty. You can win peaceful culture or science as Mongolia and you can win domination as France. The point is that Denmark has bonuses toward only one VC, which only work well on specific maps, and even then it's only middling at doing that when compared to other military civs. I can make good arguments that England, Ottoman, Ethiopia, China, Japan would all do better at domination than Denmark at Denmark's optimal map. And that's half the military civs in the game.... on Denmark's best map (while Denmark is far less good on other maps). Whereas the other military civs are at least top 3 on their optimal maps. Its not just a CB rush. Half the military civs don't use CB rushes.

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[klaskeren]

playing with denmark is almost just like playing without bonuses at all, so yeah they are absolutely worthless. But then again, if you are good, you don't need those bonuses to win, just to win faster

 

[BBMorti]

I haven't played other than Diety or MP since the release of BNW, never bothered with guides.
Since you mentioned putting up a diety challenge I thought it was obvious that was the difficulty that was spoken about when you talked about your capital sniping strategies, from sea.

You said you took diety capitals in one turn, from sea, with catapults.. I would love to see that. On a water map ships will make domination(diety) trivial, more trivial than swimming some CB's and catas to some capital, but on a continents or pangea I would love to see you do that one turn snipe you talk about.
Only thing I saw from you is a concede on the 7 salt map, it is hard to know if you are just talking or not when I don't know you, but I do not assume you are some sub immortal player just for putting forward an unrealistic claim.

 

[Cromagnus]

I haven't played other than Diety or MP since the release of BNW, never bothered with guides.
Since you mentioned putting up a diety challenge I thought it was obvious that was the difficulty that was spoken about when you talked about your capital sniping strategies, from sea.

You said you took diety capitals in one turn, from sea, with catapults.. I would love to see that. On a water map ships will make domination(diety) trivial, more trivial than swimming some CB's and catas to some capital, but on a continents or pangea I would love to see you do that one turn snipe you talk about.
Only thing I saw from you is a concede on the 7 salt map, it is hard to know if you are just talking or not when I don't know you, but I do not assume you are some sub immortal player just for putting forward an unrealistic claim.

I don't disagree that Domination is more *trivial* with England on Continents than Denmark, because England is virtually custom-made for that kind of domination, but Denmark can do it without teching Frigates, and that's absolutely worth something. And they clear their own continent really fast. IMHO, faster than England, because England's UU doesn't kick in until Machinery, whereas Danish catapults are effective immediately. Once your continent is cleared you can start the invasion at Astronomy with berserkers and siege units.

I guess I look at it differently. What makes a civ upper-tier at Domination for me is whether they have a better-than-average ability to execute an *early* Domination run, IE without teching artillery or frigates. *Any* civ can effectively win by beelining either of those techs. Similarly, any civ can win with an XB rush. The important thing is simply: Which civs give you *advantages* at doing so? Denmark's UA and UU are *absolutely* an advantage for such a victory.

With that definition, all of the following civs are excellent for Domination: Mongolia and Arabia for mounted ranged rush, China, England, Maya, Babylon, Inca, Poland, Assyria and Germany for XB rush... Persia, Zulu can do it multiple ways, and yes, Denmark too. I might throw Sweden in there too because of their synergy with Honor. That's a long list, and I might put 5 of those civs ahead of Denmark for Domination, but it's in the mix. Yes, they're bottom-tier for peaceful games... but that wasn't my point.

And, now I guess I have no choice but to announce the Denmark Pangaea Diety Challenge. Putting your money where your mouth is and all that.

I'll make a separate thread.

Oh, and that 7 salt map thing? How could you think I wasn't a Deity player?? You do realize I got t137 artillery on that map, right? I'm not claiming to be top-tier, but still. Getting Artillery that fast without cheating is pretty damn impressive, I think. Have you done it?

Oh, and sure, 4 opponents down by t191 isn't super-fast, but it's not exactly bad for Deity lol. I just got unlucky because Sweden had insane production and had the GW, so he spammed units so fast I couldn't penetrate for 20 turns, due to splitting my army to go after Attila simultaneously. I quit because (for better or worse) I now get bored when it looks like I won't finish a Domination game by t220. Why? Because I've won *so many times on Deity later than that*.

I admit, I've never executed an XB rush on a Standard Deity Pangaea map without having to tech to the Industrial for the last couple civs. But, claiming that you can one-turn snipe a capital with Denmark isn't *unrealistic*. I'm claiming it can be done because I've done it. Yes, I've never finished pre-t200 with Denmark, but I'd never finished pre-t200 on Deity until about a month ago with ANY Civ. But I have played Deity Denmark a lot. For better or worse, I got all the way to Deity without reading forums, so I executed my first Deity Domination runs starting with catapults, because I didn't know about CB rush as a tactic. So, yes I'm qualified to say that it can be done. Admittedly, I had Steam Power (for the extra move) and cannons when I finished my Domination runs, and it's possible that the extra movement point made all the difference. But I HAVE since then invaded other continents with XBs and taken capitals, so I'm 100% confident that the same can be done with Denmark even easier.

By the way, if you know so much about Deity domination with Denmark, I assume you've played with them a lot... right? Did you even try them at all on Deity, or just decide they sucked?

 

[adwcta]

Dude, you have a weird definition of good at domination. I think most people prefer to look at things more holistically.

I define good by ease of winning with the civ on deity. I think this is what most people think good means. Denmark is not good. It is the worst. That can be true even if the best player can win the game with said civ with a faster turn time on optimal settings than with any other civ.

E.g. in a fighting game, or a competitive RTS , just because one of the best player uses a certain character/faction with success, does not mean it is not actually pretty bad.

Things are instead judged by the aggregate competitive community. Now, this game is not competitive, but I think when you start ranking things, similar principals apply.

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[BBMorti]

I don't disagree that Domination is more *trivial* with England on Continents than Denmark, because England is virtually custom-made for that kind of domination, but Denmark can do it without teching Frigates, and that's absolutely worth something. And they clear their own continent really fast. IMHO, faster than England, because England's UU doesn't kick in until Machinery, whereas Danish catapults are effective immediately. Once your continent is cleared you can start the invasion at Astronomy with berserkers and siege units.

I guess I look at it differently. What makes a civ upper-tier at Domination for me is whether they have a better-than-average ability to execute an *early* Domination run, IE without teching artillery or frigates. *Any* civ can effectively win by beelining either of those techs. Similarly, any civ can win with an XB rush. The important thing is simply: Which civs give you *advantages* at doing so? Denmark's UA and UU are *absolutely* an advantage for such a victory.

With that definition, all of the following civs are excellent for Domination: Mongolia and Arabia for mounted ranged rush, China, England, Maya, Babylon, Inca, Poland, Assyria and Germany for XB rush... Persia, Zulu can do it multiple ways, and yes, Denmark too. I might throw Sweden in there too because of their synergy with Honor. That's a long list, and I might put 5 of those civs ahead of Denmark for Domination, but it's in the mix. Yes, they're bottom-tier for peaceful games... but that wasn't my point.

And, now I guess I have no choice but to announce the Denmark Pangaea Diety Challenge. Putting your money where your mouth is and all that.

I'll make a separate thread.

Oh, and that 7 salt map thing? How could you think I wasn't a Deity player?? You do realize I got t137 artillery on that map, right? I'm not claiming to be top-tier, but still. Getting Artillery that fast without cheating is pretty damn impressive, I think. Have you done it?

Oh, and sure, 4 opponents down by t191 isn't super-fast, but it's not exactly bad for Deity lol. I just got unlucky because Sweden had insane production and had the GW, so he spammed units so fast I couldn't penetrate for 20 turns, due to splitting my army to go after Attila simultaneously. I quit because (for better or worse) I now get bored when it looks like I won't finish a Domination game by t220. Why? Because I've won *so many times on Deity later than that*.

I admit, I've never executed an XB rush on a Standard Deity Pangaea map without having to tech to the Industrial for the last couple civs. But, claiming that you can one-turn snipe a capital with Denmark isn't *unrealistic*. I'm claiming it can be done because I've done it. Yes, I've never finished pre-t200 with Denmark, but I'd never finished pre-t200 on Deity until about a month ago with ANY Civ. But I have played Deity Denmark a lot. For better or worse, I got all the way to Deity without reading forums, so I executed my first Deity Domination runs starting with catapults, because I didn't know about CB rush as a tactic. So, yes I'm qualified to say that it can be done. Admittedly, I had Steam Power (for the extra move) and cannons when I finished my Domination runs, and it's possible that the extra movement point made all the difference. But I HAVE since then invaded other continents with XBs and taken capitals, so I'm 100% confident that the same can be done with Denmark even easier.

By the way, if you know so much about Deity domination with Denmark, I assume you've played with them a lot... right? Did you even try them at all on Deity, or just decide they sucked?

I can't say I have reached art's at turn 137, but I have been thereabouts with civs like babylon. Any civ that can reach key units like XB,Frigates, Art's as quickly as possible are great Domination civs, which is why in Gods and Kings, for example Babylon,Korea and Maya were likely the best ones for even domination many would say.
I did clear maps with Xbows a lot on gods and Kings, not so much in this expansion, where diety is 'just not like the old days' Granted most of my hours are on pangea maps, so I have a great amount of playing experience on those.

But to make that point clear, I didn't think you were not a diety level player, I just said I only know you from that thread where you conceded a game. You seem to obsess over quick win times. I am not so much, I did have a period in Gods and Kings where I did, but it came down to how brutally you could abuse the engine, and it wasn't fun for me.

Of course I have played Domination with Denmark, I am from Denmark after all.
I never said I knew so much about Domination with Denmark, what I was addressing was the way you tried to put the Danish civ on a pedestal, like they could pull things off that other civs couldn't.
On a water map 'taking a capital on one turn' with catas and xbows is hardly relevant when Ships does it better, faster, and are more useful for clearing the rest of the map after taking said capital. On a land map less so since many capitals are not inland, but the ones that are near sea are swarming with ships, as you know being a diety player, and so swimming some catapults through the culture borders, since you have to DOW first, will not necessarily be a one turn thing. My objection here is your claim that attacking with land units from Sea can take a capital in *one* turn, nothing else. Of course it can be done to take a capital from sea with xbows, nothing new there.

Great to hear about the diety challenge! It seemed to die out after diety got nerfed..