Denmark introduces border controls; EU ministers to reintroduce passport controls

Sadly, that's the principle the EU is built upon, and with its current organization it won't be able to gather enough trust and support to move beyond that point :(

I'm not sure that this was the case, so much as this issue makes it the case now. It's arguable that the EU was initially formed on a federalist basis, moving to an intergovernmentalist one, before coming back to a federalist one. This would seem to move it back to intergovernmentalism, but I don't think that's inherent to the EU.
 
I'd rather put the chain confederation -> intergovernmentalism -> (hopefully) federalism.

The current EU doesn't fit into either of these categories really. It has federal (European Parliament, European Commission) and intergovernmental (European Council and Council of the European Union*) aspects. The attempt to introduce a common European institution would've definitely strengthened the federal aspect, but that failed due to, unsurprisingly, national resentments in Netherlands and Ireland, among others.

* Yes, these are different things, and they're different from the Council of Europe as well :crazyeye: (insert fitting Life of Brian quote)

Since the financial crisis, things became more rough between the members, and with everyone looking for their own good first, the intergovernmental aspect definitely gained weight. I don't remember the last time when the Commission or even Parliament did something meaningful. It's always the heads of its consituent governments, or even worse, only Merkel and Sarkozy.

With the current public perception of the EU, I don't think that will change in the next century. Especially not if it goes on to expand.
 
Given the drastic changes and shifts that have occurred over the ~60 years of community thus far, I wouldn't be that pessimistic about it. Certainly the momentum for the immediate future would appear to have been completely sapped, but change happens quickly, as has been seen.
 
Given the drastic changes and shifts that have occurred over the ~60 years of community thus far, I wouldn't be that pessimistic about it. Certainly the momentum for the immediate future would appear to have been completely sapped, but change happens quickly, as has been seen.

Change is good when it's sound and responsible. Schengen was ambitious but not well thought out in terms of making sure the financial burden of immigration control is shared evenly throughout the union. You should be able to trust that the people coming across a border into another state has been screened and checked out at the point of entry into Schengen, when the truth is that either they slipped through the net at that entry or the entry state is just glad to release some of the pressure on getting to the bottom of the immigration queue.

Ideally Denmark and other core states without an external point of entry besides airports and harbors should use the money to shore up the entry states control and not use it at the borders to other Schengen states. But does this happen?
 
Denmark: Still being the ******ed special needs child in the EU:hammer2:

The results of this law is going to so much fun. When the same people who votes DF start getting stopped from crossing over the border to buy cheap soda and beer in Germany all hell is going to break lose:rotfl:
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The argument for loosening immigration restrictions is identical to the argument for loosening trade restrictions, and for free markets in general. It's just weird that right wingers don't see the arguments for free trade when it applies to labour and not just capital, goods and services.

And Bill is right - the problem of welfare dependency isn't exactly new, nor is it limited to immigrants. The solution is to redesign welfare so that it incentivises finding work, instead of living off welfare - that's true even if we didn't have any immigration at all. Welfare dependency isn't a huge issue for me, but if the right are so butt-hurt about it they should focus on that instead of delivering populist xenophobia to avoid thinking too hard about it. And Bill is also right that immigrants are necessary in order to avert the impending demographic crisis in Western Europe. We simply can't afford the pensions of the baby boomers without more immigration -- if you wanted a financial imperative for immigration, there it is.
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The argument for loosening immigration restrictions is identical to the argument for loosening trade restrictions, and for free markets in general. It's just weird that right wingers don't see the arguments for free trade when it applies to labour and not just capital, goods and services.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the argument for free trade something along the lines of 'if we don't try to play the international market, we'll never be able to make enough money to mean anything'? Not quite sure how that applies to immigration; massive immigration makes sense on a national level but not 'on the ground' because there are a finite supply of jobs. Or have I slipped up again?

And Bill is right - the problem of welfare dependency isn't exactly new, nor is it limited to immigrants. The solution is to redesign welfare so that it incentivises finding work, instead of living off welfare - that's true even if we didn't have any immigration at all. Welfare dependency isn't a huge issue for me, but if the right are so butt-hurt about it they should focus on that instead of delivering populist xenophobia to avoid thinking too hard about it. And Bill is also right that immigrants are necessary in order to avert the impending demographic crisis in Western Europe. We simply can't afford the pensions of the baby boomers without more immigration -- if you wanted a financial imperative for immigration, there it is.

Or a kind of reverse population control similar to 1930s Germany in which we encourage people to have more children? Or raising the retirement age? Or reducing state pensions and making more of us pay more out of our savings?
 
AFAIK, cheap labour sources provided by immigration have been a staple and underpinning of European integration, and would still be hugely beneficial. Europe would be restricting its competitiveness by cutting off that supply (I think).
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the argument for free trade something along the lines of 'if we don't try to play the international market, we'll never be able to make enough money to mean anything'? Not quite sure how that applies to immigration; massive immigration makes sense on a national level but not 'on the ground' because there are a finite supply of jobs. Or have I slipped up again?
Simply put, the free trade in goods means that goods are moved from places where there is low demand to places where there is high demand. Same applies to labour: labour moves from where it isn't needed to where it is most profitable. It's an a priori argument as old as capitalism itself that anyway isn't aimed at, for example, leftists, protectionists or the anti-globalisation crowd; it is, however, an argument that right wingers ought to acknowledge. It's just bizarre that so many supposed free-market supporters don't believe that the labour market should be free, unfettered, and subject to competition from outsiders. Why should the government protect labour markets from globalisation? Why can't we allow the invisible hand to allocate labour efficiently? Why isn't labour a market that should be subject to competition from abroad? Those are the question I would pose to right wingers.

And no, there isn't "a finite supply of jobs". That's another fallacy that capitalism destroys - just look at every other population boom in history, from the industrial revolution to the 1950s. Rather than destory jobs, population growth leads to job growth, and GDP growth. Not necessarily GDP per capita growth - that's about productivity (GDP per capita is a measure of efficiency, whereas GDP is a measure of volume). But capitalism tells us that it isn't a zero sum game.

(Again, this isn't the only reason to be open to immigration, and it obviously isn't a reason for leftists to support immigration. But for some reason, the right suddenly turns anti-capitalist when immigrants are mentioned.)

Or a kind of reverse population control similar to 1930s Germany in which we encourage people to have more children? Or raising the retirement age? Or reducing state pensions and making more of us pay more out of our savings?
Raising the retirement age so that it increases as life expectancy increases is basically a no brainer - it's the first thing that we should do, and it's the first step that most Western nations are taking. Reforming pensions so that they are primarily based on individuals' contributions, rather than paid from general taxation, makes pensions more sustainable, and reduces the dependency on population growth (i.e. tax revenue growth). Encouraging people to have more babies is not really a proven strategy... In any case, in the short- to medium-term it would cause more problems, as (a) more mothers take maternity leave and time off work to have children, and (b) more young mouths to feed. This simultaneously reduces the number of people in work, and increases the number of people dependent on workers.
 
Mise, I think the argument for border controls from the British right isn't economic it is a case of "do I want to live next door to an Indian?". Bigoted? Possibly, but that is reality.
 
Mise, I think the argument for border controls from the British right isn't economic it is a case of "do I want to live next door to an Indian?". Bigoted? Possibly, but that is reality.
Yes exactly, they passionately support capitalism one minute, then turn into raving anti-globalisation hippies as soon as a brown man buys the house next door. It's pathetic.
 
The point is that the argument hinges on all immigrants being both unemployed and filling every available job at the same time. The simple truth is a lot of British people simply don't want to take low-paid jobs which are only marginally better than benefits, while a lot of immigrants coming from poor countries think £6 an hour is a pretty good deal and snap them up. There are so few of them around, relatively, that they don't make it significantly harder for a British person to get a job if he looks - but the likes of the BNP who are voted for by the lazy and terminally useless who couldn't compete with a Scouser for a job like to blame it on the 'bladdy forriners' rather than themselves.

That is true, and it is not true. It is true that there are always people who believe that some (many?) jobs are "below" them... it can as easily be an issue of status more that purely the pay. But it is equally true that so long as an activity is necessary the pay, and possibly the status, will have to rise until there are takers. Allowing immigrants in, knowing that mostly they feel compelled (they're moving with the goal of making money, supposedly) to take any available jobs, and lack the organization, the social networking, to argue wages, inevitably dives the equilibrium value of these wages (the point where there are enough takers to fill the needs) down. Supply and demand, but with one extremely important constraint: the immigrants are in a bad position to negotiate wages, and thus depress wages far more than an equal number of "natives" looking for jobs would do. And because immigrants get channeled mostly to those "undesirable jobs", the end result is to make such jobs even less desirable, leading to increased economic and social inequality.

And this can easily become a self-reinforcing cycle, for these now more "undesirable jobs" will require, according to the proponents of increased immigration, even more immigrants because the "natives"become even less willing to do them.

Same applies to labour: labour moves from where it isn't needed to where it is most profitable. It's an a priori argument as old as capitalism itself that anyway isn't aimed at, for example, leftists, protectionists or the anti-globalisation crowd; it is, however, an argument that right wingers ought to acknowledge. It's just bizarre that so many supposed free-market supporters don't believe that the labour market should be free, unfettered, and subject to competition from outsiders. Why should the government protect labour markets from globalisation? Why can't we allow the invisible hand to allocate labour efficiently? Why isn't labour a market that should be subject to competition from abroad? Those are the question I would pose to right wingers.

No one really believes that crap about "economic laws" ruling society, not left wingers and not right wingers. Power matters. The people you know matter. Your connections, your ability to negotiate your position in the social scale, are far more complex that mere "supply and demand" regarding human beings as interchangeable parts.
The right wingers, typically the ruling classes, protect their own jobs, have their own networks and guard the gates carefully. So do left wingers, even in this time or weaker unions.

And no, there isn't "a finite supply of jobs". That's another fallacy that capitalism destroys - just look at every other population boom in history, from the industrial revolution to the 1950s. Rather than destory jobs, population growth leads to job growth, and GDP growth. Not necessarily GDP per capita growth - that's about productivity (GDP per capita is a measure of efficiency, whereas GDP is a measure of volume). But capitalism tells us that it isn't a zero sum game.

Bullcrap! Take the industrial revolution: would the 18th century displaced rural workers who were driven to the factories and coal mines have felt happy about their predicament? Hey, GDP was growing! They were the human parts used to grow it but could barely get enough to survive, but they should be happy!

The bloody bastards eventually organized to actually demanded higher wages and fewer work hours, imagine that. The bastards! Back to the 12-hour day. Hell, the 16-hour day and factory dormitories. Clearly, increased productivity means that we must all work more!

"Capitalism" is a blind monster which tramples everything on the way of increased profit. It benefits the rentier class for some time, and in the end not even those, because left alone it must starve itself. Every place where it was allegedly made to "work", it worked because social democracy changed it to acknowledge that maximization of profit was not a socially acceptable goal, there are other goals more important to more people. That was the 1950s. Now it has moved back to rentier capitalism, and (unsurprising) it's falling apart.

Raising the retirement age so that it increases as life expectancy increases is basically a no brainer - it's the first thing that we should do, and it's the first step that most Western nations are taking.

Why? There is already an oversupply of goods, services, and labour. Advertisement (for pushing ever more good and services - "consuming is patriotic, it grows the GDP") and unemployment benefits cannot hide that. And you want people to work for longer?

Reforming pensions so that they are primarily based on individuals' contributions, rather than paid from general taxation, makes pensions more sustainable, and reduces the dependency on population growth (i.e. tax revenue growth).

Cot the newspeak. "Reforming" here means "changing", use the proper words. Hell "reforming" has been used so often already that it's well on its way to becoming a hated word.
Now, having pensions based on individual's contributions... I thought that was already what just about every state does. So, what exactly are you getting at? As if I didn't knew: the "private pension plans". Another financial tool to feed the rentier class which controls the bank assets. And when in their greed they suck the banks and insurance companies dry, the state will inevitably pick the tab, for the alternative would be to have all those old people starve to death.
 
Why? There is already an oversupply of goods, services, and labour. Advertisement (for pushing ever more good and services - "consuming is patriotic, it grows the GDP") and unemployment benefits cannot hide that. And you want people to work for longer?

Yes. You see, there's going to be quite a lot of us old folks before too long and we're ungrateful enough to presume that once we've worked for upwards of four decades we should be allowed to have something of a break. I think I actually have a net bad effect on teh economy because I do a job for free that would normally be waged, and so there's one less spender around because of me.
 
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