Disinformation 2020 and beyond

[Estebonrober]

Calling someone a liar and then telling them to start another thread when they defend themself is garbage

Just take your garbage elsewhere. Its been addressed so often by so many I'm not bothering with it anymore. Go dig up your previous posts on it and my replies they have not changed in the last two weeks.

 

[Estebonrober]

Yeah it's one thing to trash your own nation, another thing to trash someone else's.

Also Russians are a proud people, culturally it's rude to say go to Russia and trash it there. M at e discuss politics or whatever with close friends but yeah...

It's not like Red_Elk lives in Australia for example.

O Dear Lord the whole planet is here trashing the USA every day including you so take your high horse and shove it. Russia can kiss my ass on this level. Its a pernicious part of misinformation problem globally and that is undeniable, their success at it starts at home.

 

[Estebonrober]

I gave you the link and you can see doctored quote from Russian original with your own eyes.
No amount of mud can prevent you from doing that, only willful blindness.

Dude I agreed with you on this specific case. Then I explained why it can still be part of the problem I thought pretty well. Do you respect the Kremlin as a good faith purveyor of honest information? They spend more time misinforming their own then they do me.

 

[Estebonrober]

You say things like this and still believe it's only conservatives that have been victims of propaganda? Take a good long look in the mirror bud. You are part of the problem.

I'm not routinely threatening people online because I think conservatives are an enemy of America. I'm sure I'm a victim of propaganda but now you've expanded its definition past the intent here. I'm talking about blatant lying without remorse for hte sake of smearing political clarity not whether I feel like Medicare for All would be better then private health insurance.

so unless you got something specific?

 

[innonimatu]

It's funny how people act all excited about the idea of disinformation now. As if it were something new! There's nothing new about it recently.

The last big change was the reach of disinformation, which increased as the education level increased. And it got specialized in the process. But that was competed, in the "developed world", about 20 years ago, as higher education became common. Wherever effect the internet and social media may seem to had can be more accurately explained by that. The dream of decentralized, multitudinous information sources hampering propaganda was crushed by the economic and scale monopolies on the internet to which people happily adhered.

Please read some of the classic texts on propaganda before wasting time reading short essays about it, that abound in the media proposing simplistic "solutions" (fact-checking, hah!). This one is a must. He was one of the first to put emphasis on the roles of social class (the peace of mind to spend time consuming "information") and education (setting the mental stage) in enabling propaganda's success. It's not just the poor, the "deplortables" who are prey to propaganda. In fact the opposite is closer to the truth.

 

[Estebonrober]

It's funny how people act all excited about the idea of disinformation now. As if it were something new! There's nothing new about it recently.

The last big change was the reach of disinformation, which increased as the education level increased. And it got specialized in the process. But that was competed, in the "developed world", about 20 years ago, as higher education became common. Wherever effect the internet and social media may seem to had can be more accurately explained by that. The dream of decentralized, multitudinous information sources hampering propaganda was crushed by the economic and scale monopolies on the internet to which people happily adhered.

Please read some of the classic texts on propaganda before wasting time reading short essays about it. This one is a must. He was one of the first to put emphasis on the roles of social class (the peace of mind to spend time consuming "information") and education (setting the mental stage) in enabling propaganda's success. It's not just the poor, the "deplortables" who are prey to propaganda. In fact the opposite is closer to the truth.

Social Media has dramatically expanded the power and scale of disinformation campaigns.

 

[Zardnaar]

O Dear Lord the whole planet is here trashing the USA every day including you so take your high horse and shove it. Russia can kiss my ass on this level. Its a pernicious part of misinformation problem globally and that is undeniable, their success at it starts at home.

So a relative handful of Russians posting stuff online can destabilize the USA?

Let's assume they did it to a large degree. How dumb/stupid do you have to be to fall for it?

Nothing good comes from using Facebook and Twitter lol.

 

[innonimatu]

Social Media has dramatically expanded the power and scale of disinformation campaigns.

No. What has expanded the reach was education, and that in countries where education only expanded recently. The level of education also had some impact on the methods chosen to deploy propaganda, or the mix of methods. In Western Europe or the US nothing much changed in 20+ years. Social media is, for propaganda value and technique, a direct continuation of the past mass media, plays the very same role. Most of the content in social media is strategically seeded from the same traditional sources. And cheaper to produce, hah, journalists now work for peanuts!

Sadly, also, what will change things is the continuous impoverishment of the mass of the population leading people to tune out of the "information highways". And making that other type of propaganda, agitation propaganda, more successful in unforeseeable ways. Still, I'll prefer that risk over the present rot.

Humility, knowing that we all are subjects of propaganda constantly, must always carry prejudices, is necessary. That we must think over things carefully before committing. Or think over who to trust if we can't take the time to think over a subject. But asking people to be humble is a tough sell, isn't it?
I do hope that valuing people who have an history of integrity will increase. It'll be a step in that direction.

 

[Estebonrober]

So a relative handful of Russians posting stuff online can destabilize the USA?

Let's assume they did it to a large degree. How dumb/stupid do you have to be to fall for it?

Nothing good comes from using Facebook and Twitter lol.

Idk ask conservatives who lap it up like thirsty dogs? Most of it was anti Hillary stuff so

I'm more concerned about Trump campaign efforst then Russia, but this thread is awakening me to the fact that its well too late we seem forked.

 

[Zardnaar]

Idk ask conservatives who lap it up like thirsty dogs? Most of it was anti Hillary stuff so

I'm more concerned about Trump campaign efforst then Russia, but this thread is awakening me to the fact that its well too late we seem forked.

Clinton was bad on her own right.

GoPs hated the Clinton's since 1992 or so.
They only list 1 election between 68 and 92.

 

[Estebonrober]

No. What has expanded the reach was education, and that in countries where education only expanded recently. The level of education also had some impact on the methods chosen to deploy propaganda, or the mix of methods. In Western Europe or the US nothing much changed in 20+ years. Social media is, for propaganda value and technique, a direct continuation of the past mass media, plays the very same role. Most of the content in social media is strategically seeded from the same traditional sources. And cheaper to produce, hah, journalists now work for peanuts!

Sadly, also, what will change things is the continuous impoverishment of the mass of the population leading people to tune out of the "information highways". And making that other type of propaganda, agitation propaganda, more successful in unforeseeable ways. Still, I'll prefer that risk over the present rot.

Humility, knowing that we all are subjects of propaganda constantly, must always carry prejudices, is necessary. That we must think over things carefully before committing. Or think over who to trust if we can't take the time to think over a subject. But asking people to be humble is a tough sell, isn't it?
I do hope that valuing people who have an history of integrity will increase. It'll be a step in that direction.

I mean I guess I'd disagree since as an American I've seen a dramatic increase in outright lying propaganda in the last five years. Also since I consider you a victim of some of the worst forms of conspiratorial thinking about globalism I can tell you we will not agree on much here.

 

[innonimatu]

I mean I guess I'd disagree since as an American I've seen a dramatic increase in outright lying propaganda in the last five years. Also since I consider you a victim of some of the worst forms of conspiratorial thinking about globalism I can tell you we will not agree on much here.

It's funny because I think that you are a victim of conspiracy theories, starting with russiagate.

As I was trying to explain above, the change I can see coming is the increase in importance of agitation propaganda, that "lying propaganda" is part of it, as material conditions deteriorate for a larger fraction of the population. I guess that it may be already happening, but things are not really bad yet. I don't believe it's close to be the dominant form.

Brazil makes an interesting case study. A frailer society, with a middle class just rising from poverty and very fearful of flling back into it, all it took was a small economic crisis to topple a president and put in place a totally different one riding a wave of lies. That hasn't yet happened in the US. It can in the next economic crisis. Very much.
But neither western european countries nor the US are in that place now. It'll take another great financial crisis to produce the conditions that enable it. And then it can produce something very bad or something very good... no crystal ball to predict it. I just don't think it'll be papered over Obama-style again.

 

[FriendlyFire]

3 years of RussiaGate and you're worried about Trump's dirty tricks

Clinton Whitewater investigation ?
Clinton Benghazi investigation ?
Clinton Email investigation ?

and your worried about Clintons dirty tricks

 

[Estebonrober]

It's funny because I think that you are a victim of conspiracy theories, starting with russiagate.

As I was trying to explain above, the change I can see coming is the increase in importance of agitation propaganda, that "lying propaganda" is part of it, as material conditions deteriorate for a larger fraction of the population. I guess that it may be already happening, but things are not really bad yet. I don't believe it's close to be the dominant form.

Brazil makes an interesting case study. A frailer society, with a middle class just rising from poverty and very fearful of calling back into it, all it took was a small economic crisis to topple a president and put in place a totally different one riding a wave of lies. That hasn't yet happened in the US. It can in the next economic crisis. Very much.
But neither western european countries nor the US are in that place now. It'll take another great financial crisis to produce the conditions that enable it. And then, in can produce something very bad or something very good... no crystal ball to predict it. I just don't think it'll be papered over Obama-style again.

I'd like to avoid "russiagate" as a topic here honestly. Its hashed out in sooo many other threads. I know what you think about it, you know what I think about it. I largely think we all see the same thing in this case its just a lot of us see criminal corruption and your side sees counter corruption? I've never figured it out, but propaganda doesn't have a lot to do with it and certainly not intentional lying propaganda.

The rest of your point here I agree with completely.