Nice explanation there, I've never thought to use whipping in the mid-late game to amass an army. Its always draft or straight building for me, this seems a lot more effective with 4-5 extra happy cap in each city, I shall have to try it out myself soon. As always very informative write-up.
I have trouble with warring during most eras because it's hard to get a good stack going without taking so long that my units become obsolete. Now I see that more farms = more food = tons more production via whipping/drafting. Your tech rate still seems respectable despite heavily farmed land, is this just because you're running a bureaucracy capital and letting it do most of the heavy lifting? Definitely trying to whip up earlier armies in my next game
You mentioned that you have enough espionage for two discounted city revolts, but how to you anticipate continuing the city capturing without siege? I saw the slider was on 100% espionage, but with all your upcoming battles, will that be enough?
Nice, I guess whipping is even more powerful a tool than I initially thought. I tend to go to caste system when I switch to pacifism + bureau, and I tend not to stack whip anger. How wrong I have been all this time... It is indeed what I wanted to see, a very good writeup of perpararions. You the man!
Stacking whip anger isn't good in the early game, and not that great in the late game either, unless you have The Kremlin. Caste is pretty good once you have fully powered workshops (14 tiles? yes please) and can grow your cities.
Nice explanation there, I've never thought to use whipping in the mid-late game to amass an army. Its always draft or straight building for me, this seems a lot more effective with 4-5 extra happy cap in each city, I shall have to try it out myself soon. As always very informative write-up.
Draft is pretty powerful but sadly doesn't work with 2-movement units
Also whipping can be done in every city rather than just 3. It's really a powerful civic...
I have trouble with warring during most eras because it's hard to get a good stack going without taking so long that my units become obsolete. Now I see that more farms = more food = tons more production via whipping/drafting. Your tech rate still seems respectable despite heavily farmed land, is this just because you're running a bureaucracy capital and letting it do most of the heavy lifting? Definitely trying to whip up earlier armies in my next game
My capital is certainly pulling me along yes. Trade routes aren't bad either and the long river means more commerce, even from farms. Research would be over 500 by now had I gone the science route and would be pretty close, or have finished Rifling.
You mentioned that you have enough espionage for two discounted city revolts, but how to you anticipate continuing the city capturing without siege? I saw the slider was on 100% espionage, but with all your upcoming battles, will that be enough?
The idea behind Cuirassiers/Cavalry warfare is they ignore walls/castles as they are post-gunpowder units, so all you're facing is the cultural defense. The more important cities to revolt are hill cities(Nippur) and old cities with a lot of culture(Babylon). Otherwise overwhelming numbers will overpower even longbows and pikes in cities. As you'll see when I post the next round, the odds for attacking a non-bombarded city with a Cuirassier really aren't bad. They're even better with Cavalry (a lot better in fact, the extra 3 strength is huge) and it helps that most cities are on flat ground and that Hammurabi is not protective (although Pikes are stronger because of Aggressive).
You will lose units and accumulate war weariness but it's a small price to pay in exchange for a faster war.
~~~
I've played part of the next round (either I will play a few more turns or stop where I currently am) but I don't have enough time to post it at the moment.
Again, I'd like to say that this has to be one of the most informative series. I learn more with each read, although I'm still light years from beating Deity. (I actually shadowed this game and actually finished my first deity game although an atrocious culture loss to Mansa). Keep up the great work.
On another note, would you mind explaining the espionage mechanics. I understand the aspect that you can use spies as pseudo-siege by revolting to lower cultural defense. However, I don't understand how the discount works. How many spies to you use? Do you whip spies too? thanks
Again, I'd like to say that this has to be one of the most informative series. I learn more with each read, although I'm still light years from beating Deity. (I actually shadowed this game and actually finished my first deity game although an atrocious culture loss to Mansa). Keep up the great work.
On another note, would you mind explaining the espionage mechanics. I understand the aspect that you can use spies as pseudo-siege by revolting to lower cultural defense. However, I don't understand how the discount works. How many spies to you use? Do you whip spies too? thanks
I'll show how I used the spies in the war. I think I had 3 or 4 spies in all, I can't remember the exact count.
Either you slow build them (I used Bulawayo to let it grow) or build them in 1 turn with overflow from another build.
There's a good article on the strategy articles subforum that's more eloquent about espionage.
You can't guarantee you'll be able to successfully revolt a city with any number of spies, but I like at least 2 to have better odds.
~~~
Not sure I can post the report today... I played on a bit instead, to the end of the Hammurabi war. I had previously stopped to consider capitulation but now he's gone.
Sorry for the delay but real life takes precedence on civ.
As a heads up, I've just upgraded customassets mods to BULL 1.1 and BUG 4.3. However I turned off the Show Hidden Attitude mod as it seemed to show spoiler information (Sorry DaveMCW!). I might use it in the future if I'm certain it doesn't.
I delayed the war a few more turns, for reinforcements and to allow my spies to get a bigger discount on revolting cities.
By 1060AD, I consider myself ready.
Spoiler:
On the first turn of war, Stack B moves in on Mari.
Spoiler:
Roughly 36% chance of victory.
It pays to be lucky!
I lose 1 cuirassier in the taking of the city however.
And another clearing the stack he had sitting by, but I'm doing great so far.
Stack A meanwhile moves into position for a double strike the following turn.
Spoiler:
1070AD
Stack B heals into Mari.
I revolt Nippur using spies.
Spoiler:
Only 40% stationary discount but whatever, the first spy's mission is successful. The other 2 spies go to Babylon.
The odds for taking the city are just overwhelming...
Spoiler:
Upon capture, Versailles is mine... Good fortune.
Following a crushing victory, I move on a more challenging city.
Spoiler:
No spy revolt here so I face 60% cultural defense + 25% from C. Itza.
Still, ~58% odds is pretty good when you have numbers.
2 turns in the war, 3 cities are mine, and Hammy has barely any mobile units left.
The following turns are spent healing my troops. I attached a Great General to a Cuirassier and made him into a mobile Medic III healer to hasten up the process.
Spoiler:
When the AI feels threatened, they tend to stack units into a city. I like to do that to distract them and here it was especially good because I had spies to revolt Babylon. More units there, less everywhere else, easier fight. That explains the few units I have within striking range.
By 1090AD, I am elected Hinduist pope and don't have to worry about defying AP resolutions.
Spoiler:
This is the stack Hammy sent my way... oh noes!
Spoiler:
Where did it go?
City capture resumes at 1100AD.
Spoiler:
[/URL]
The next turn I finally have enough discount/EP to revolt Babylon.
Spoiler:
I had to run 100% espionage slider for a bit since I didn't revolt Nippur at full discount nor Babylon... both at 40%. Good thing I brought 2 spies, the first was caught and failed while the second succeeded but was also caught.
I had just enough units to capture Babylon, literally, my last Cuirassier took it.
War result for Babylon: pretty successful.
At this point I strongly considered taking Hammurabi in as a vassal. My losses were minimal and gains were very good (5 cities) and it would allow me to strike on Brennus earlier. However I decided against it in the end as it would severely hurt my relations with HC and I didn't want him to get any ideas before I was ready for him. Moreover, complete control of my initial landmass will make domination easier to achieve. As a result, I plowed on.
Spoiler:
The end result is Hammurabi's completely wiped off in 1190AD, so this was a 13 turns war rather than 7 plus capitulation. Losses were heavier on the closing stage but whatever. Now I don't have to garrison cities to prevent revolts at least.
Spoiler:
I hit enter to get to 1200AD, eliminate war weariness and look at the situation. I lost 15 more cuirassiers taking the last 4 cities, making the war cost 28 Cuirassiers in all.
First, I just settled my Moai city, giving me 18 cities.
Spoiler:
I love Expansive... it should grow fast once it hits the next few pop points.
I did some micro after taking the screenshots and the bpt is up to 425 now, with barely any science buildings.
Techs
Spoiler:
I have to strike Brennus ASAP. Research is pointed at Rifling but I can't stop producing units now and I'll declare war ASAP. I don't know what he's researching right now but he might be going after Rifling too. It's due in 7 turns for me.
Diplomacy
Spoiler:
Touchy with Huayna but I'll have to go after him sooner or later for Domination/Conquest.
I'm not sure I can take out Brennus before he gets Rifling. He has 12 cities to Hammurabi's 9 and they are more spaced out. Unless he's after Astronomy to reach Justinian's last city which is offshore somewhere, I need to do the most damage I can before he gets there. I have sent my last spy to scout him out. The good news is his core cities have very little defense (3~4 units each) while the bad is I can't locate his SoD for the moment. Presumably it'll be in Justinian's former cities somewhere.
I'm also a bit short on units right now so I need to replenish my forces before a strike is possible. I can always declare war to lure his SoD out and then kill it before going after his cities.
Of course I have more cities now to contribute to the war effort so anything is possible.
~~~~
@DMOC - I haven't built the Globe Theatre yet, couldn't spare the hammers. I don't now either but I might be forced to at some point seeing the whip anger (83 turns at the moment) there! I don't have any need for drafting right now so 300 hammers for 3 extra cuirassiers is still better atm.
I just finished the game. It didn't go quite as planned, but that tends to happen on Deity.
Anyway, I need to get a few extra screenshots, I forgot to take some of them. Report will be up in some time.
Bad news: First of all, my spy finally found Brennus's SoD, it got pretty big after all. Second, he was beelining Rifling meaning the window of opportunity for a cavalry war was missed. I figured I'd go at it again with Bombers or something.
Spoiler:
Since pretty much everyone was in Free Religion, I converted to Judaism, Brennus's religion to allow peaceful teching for a while.
HC decided he wanted one more vassal and released several island cities.
Spoiler:
Not enough room for trade pictures so I'll list some of them instead.
1500AD
MM: Steam Power+Constitution <-> Physics
1505AD
Gandhi: Communism <-> Physics
1510AD
Roosevelt: Democracy <-> Communism
1520AD
Gandhi: Corportaion <-> Democracy
1555AD
MM: Railroad <-> Electricity
1610AD
MM: Combustion+1885 gold <-> Biology
Huayna had been teching rather slowly for several turns and I suspected a culture victory attempt. Until then however, Mansa was still listed as the top contender in that category. That all changed in 1620AD.
Spoiler:
All 3 cities being quite far off inland.
Spoiler:
Ok, scrap the Brennus invasion plans. 74 turns isn't a lot of time and it was going down faster and faster. Cities were reassigned builds to start on military right away to prevent an Incan victory.
After building units for a while, I judge I can take HC on by 1755AD.
Spoiler:
That's it you say? Well... I had some backup.
Spoiler:
So now I had a base from which I could launch further assaults.
Spoiler:
I had been building a bigger punch meanwhile...
Spoiler:
All that was left to do was waltz in.
Spoiler:
And raze the city.
One threat down, looks like HC is out of the picture.
Spoiler:
I didn't take peace right away as I had a few more punches to deliver. Remember the cuirassiers from the invasion force? This was their duty:
Spoiler:
Pillage access to the city.
Meaning any counterattack would be nuked into oblivion.
Of course HC obliged and came right in the trap.
Needless to say, nothing was left alive.
Earlier in the round, Mansa got around to building the United Nations. Having the largest population in the world, I was the contender and won the Secretary General vote.
Spoiler:
I pulled a page from the obsolete civ 4 tricks book because I couldn't win this turn even with Brennus's votes (300+148 is short 3).
Spoiler:
Bada-booom!
Spoiler:
Ever noticed how nukes make a happy face towards the end?
The previous made these changes to world pop:
Spoiler:
So after hitting enter... Shaka is done spilling blood and dons a suit with briefcase.
Spoiler:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Post-game
A fun game, made easier by the great land. I got lazy in the end and didn't want to spend 2 more hours fighting intercontinental Deity AIs in the modern era, but I'm sure it's quite easy from where I razed HC's culture attempt. Being the only one with Fission will make short work of pretty much everyone else.
I don't think vassaling Hammurabi would have been fast enough to take out Brennus. I would have needed to go straight after him rather than take out Hammurabi.
Stuff built
Spoiler:
Top 5 cities
Spoiler:
I've attached the save from the turn of the DoW if anyone wants to try their hand at the last few turns.
That's it for this game, see you tomorrow in the 25th edition of the series!
In my start I avoided Bronze Working, and went AH-Wheel-Pottery-Fishing-Mining-Writing-Aesthetics. I also settled the gold first before the horse.
Next turn the gold mine is up, and I settle the horse site. From here its a couple more settlers and some workers for cottaging. Had a heck of a time pushing my fogbusters out, they survived but kept getting 0.5'd. Warrior here would scout past the barb cities and I'd end up getting a city at the bronze/cow/double seafood on the marble site in the north.
Oh and that's my exploring workboat being built first thing. I end up roading out to Ham ASAP over sailing since I also skipped BW going for early aesthetics. Found the other continent/island about the time I got sailing for some nice trade routes - such a huge difference since that 5 extra for the early TRs and another 5 for intercontinental.
I get aesthetics really early and get alphabet and am able to trade for bronze working, poly, iron working, sailing, masonry and archery off the alphabet trades around 1000 BC. Luckily Mansa picked up Code of Laws first! He's willing to trade anything immediately so I put 3 turns in and pick up CoL with aesthetics around 900 BC switching to HR and caste. What a huge difference that makes since no one else has CoL. I am the first to bulb Philo around 600 BC, grabbing the Great Library the next turn, the NE shortly thereafter in the capital. Civil Service comes in at 250 BC and no one has it. I pick up 500 gold, currency and MC off of Ghandi and Mansa with 2 CS trades.
And here I am. Paper in 6, I'll have 2 GS's in 7? turns as well. Probably burn both on education so I can start the universities. I think I'll have to revolt to slavery at that point so I can whip them in. Borders pop for the stone in ~10 turns for the Oxford.
I've got 7 workers I think, 9 shortly. I'll probably build a few more since the jungle cities have lots of food and will grow quickly. I guess its Curi's for wartime. My tech lead won't last out to rifles for cavalry.
EDIT I probably should farm the jungle cities in prep for whipping. ~50 turns until Curi's? Don't have many hammers for wealth unfortunately.. Ooh can't forget to get the HE in. And I'll upgrade some HAs? Could whip a market in cap and run merchants and see if I get a GM.
@Grashopa
Nice read on the opening... early intercontinental trade routes are huge and I missed out on them for a long time.
My opening on Deity are still very questionable, I'm not used enough to AI expansion speed. Seems like there was a bit more time here.
Biggest key was meeting everyone by the time alphabet was available to me. If not I get IW and CoL much later. So really the early workboat, gold mine and aesthetics.
I grabbed the barb cities later than you.. well Ham got one of them, but it auto razed and I put a settler in. And I didn't stop playing at 250 BC ... really from then it is getting your cities ready for the military buildup not so much the tech rate. So number of workers( I have 9) + micro'ing the jungle chop. I'll try to play up to the military buildout tonight for comparison.
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4
tiles? yes please) and can grow your cities.
