'Dragons', what can we do with them?

[El_Cid]

Super feedback there Blakmane I will digest it and make some changes as you pointed out. And yes i want to make the Dragon entries as 'cannon' as they can be.

1. Acheron
On the point of Acheron (and this applies to Calavente's remark also), i wanted a 'first' Dragon, a father/mother figure. In the text i tried to make it clear that Acheron (in my remake of the dragons history) is the most powerful overall, being the first Dragon.

Eurabates is the most powerful of the 'created' dragons. And this ties into Calavente's query, Acheron was not created by any of the Angels(gods), not in a conscious manner (maybe Bhall's contribution to the creation of Erebus played a part, thus her ability to find Acheron?). He existed in his own right, as the first and only Dragon in creation, so Bhall recognized his utility and 'tamed' and used him in the wars during what became called 'the Age of Dragons'. Maybe her affinity with fire was what enabled her to find and influence Acheron?

That experience of Acheron shook all the Angels(gods), and they all rushed to create their own Dragon Weapons (in whatever way these beings do so, I had Arawn having a nightmare about Acheron that created Abashi etc).

I think the main point of making Acheron the First (and most Powerful) is that in-game he is not that big a deal (not really), a hindrance at best, but mostly something you can ignore. He is 'passive' unlike the other Dragons you can summon in game, sitting in place and only interacting with the player via his 'Disciple of Acheron(summon fireball)' and 'Sons of the Inferno(summon Fire Elemental)'. That is until you decide you have the army to take him out.

I also like that as a non player Dragon, Acheron is most powerful. I have a few posts in the thread explaining my take on that (and others have posted why it may not be a good idea etc). If it is possible to take control of Acheron as a player, by using a unit with the 'capture beast' promotion and getting lucky (40% chance), then maybe probably you deserve him? I had worried about that aspect after Calavente's mentioned it, but now as a much more powerful unit, you are going to need some serious fire-power to even have a shot at that chance? So maybe it is not a problem?

In terms of Acherons sphere of influence in the game (and the issues of those ranged arcane unit spells), early game he can push his borders but pretty soon you will win the 'culture war' against him. You make up for that early issue by all the extra Xp your units have to build up vs his spawned barb unit attacks.

In the Tweak Mod, Rystic had removed the original arcane units he spawned, and i tried playing around with a number of units, but ultimately as a Str 19 unit, without those ranged arcane unit attacks, Acheron was much weaker than in original FFH2. Often half a dozen catapults and a stack of warriors was all you needed, and no ranged attacks to weaken you before the battle. So i would see him get killed much earlier in the game in general.

Having said that i completely agree with Rystic on how annoying the arcane units ranged fire elemental (as my research found out) spells are in the default FFH2. So i have now worked out that issue by raising the promotion time that a Disciple of Acheron can turn into a Sons of the Inferno unit. No more multiple fire elementals around turn 40 onwards, they come later now it requires higher than a level 1 Disciple of Acheron (currently i'm playtesting lvl 6, but maybe lower will be what i settle on?).

In relation to Acheron killing both 'good' and 'evil' dragons, i wanted to reflect a sort of other-worldliness in that. He is a Dragon that will kill all others, whatever their alignment. He is Fire, eater of all, devourer of Suns etc. A sort of Chaotic primal force, and even though Bhall 'tamed' him, he is his own master at heart, not created by the angels so much as a natural force from creation, that Bhall harnessed for war.

2. Abashi
"The Time of Angels" - from the Civilopedia

Arawn - Angel of Death

And this precedes the Age of Dragons? so i made her aspect that of Abashi based on that. Is this timeline wrong in the Civiliopedia maybe? As long as she is the 'Angel of Death' before the Age of Dragons i think it will work?

3. Eurabatres

Ah..... he is named as a Dragon of Amathaon? I didn't see that anywhere, is there reference for this?

It is not a problem to change that around, other than i had been hoping to make Eurabatres a 'crusading' vs evil dragon (so Lugus fitted nice), but that can also be changed to something more suitable. He will be the most powerful of the 'created' dragons, so basically fitting into the current theme about that, and the most powerful of the player controlled dragons (unless super lucky capturing Acheron).

His attacks are mentioned in his current FFH2 entry "with fire, with acid" so really the holy attack i've added to the unit was just to fit that vs evil aspect. We have the other in world dragons that are evil in aspect so i wanted a true counter to that.

4. Drifa

The mention of Drifa as eldest was just in the thread as a query, and ultimately didn't pan out as Acheron as First Dragon preceded all. This is not mentioned in the civilopedia entries i've created at all. I had thought about making a list in order of when the dragon weapons were created but decided it didn't really need that detail.

In that proto-list i had Drifa as second dragon, or first of the created dragons, mainly as a link to the nordic mythology of Fire(Acheron in our FFH world) and Ice(Drifa in FFH) being the first dual aspects of creation after Ginnungagap, via the 'worlds' of Mulspelheimer and Niflheim. FFH is a lovely mix of many of those old stories, so I look to follow that tradition.

5. Other bits

Thanks for the info on Agares and Nemed not being able to create dragons. I shall lose a couple from the list and jiggle stuff around to fit better

It could indeed be possible that other dragons are not dead after the Age of Dragon wars? But i wanted to make some actual history on this as we have none, and why in game we just have the four remaining dragons. It might be that some mods will look to add back other dragons, and my version could be a problem, except magic and the world of FFH2 is pretty much capable of anything. Who is to say that some dread magic can not be discovered to raise the slain dragons once more?

I quite liked the finality of dragon weapons getting killed, it was one of the most dangerous periods of the Godwars after all and casualties will have been taken.

It can be argued that it is a bit unfair that only the Illians (evil), Sheim(evil) and Kuriotates (good) get to awaken Dragons, but that is part of the fun of much of FFH2 i find. Maybe Acheron as the most powerful and possible to capture for all other factions adds a nice dynamic to that?

I've really liked most of what the Tweak Mod has done in relation to FFH2. In particular i really liked the functioning of the 'Cult of the Dragon' in relation to Acheron (and the Kuriotates world spell that makes it trigger iirc?) and that prompted this whole discussion. I can see a really rich fuller development to all this down the line, and so far i have had fun adding to the Dragon backstory. I will certainly take all these points on-board and aim to make my dragon-mod-lite additions as lore correct as possible, while aiming for that gameplay aspect i'm also seeking in the changes i've made to the dragons in game currently.

thanks for the input and i will continue to update the first post with changes as i take on board any info you guys chuck my way, it is very much appreciated

 

[Blakmane]

It's a little unfair on newcomers, but a lot of FFH lore is contained within threads on this forum from back when Kael and the dev team were still active. The pedia is the strongest canon but is also mostly incomplete. If you go back through lore threads you may discover interesting tidbits.

In terms of feedback:

-Amathaon is a good god too so there's nothing wrong with 'holy' damage being included.

-I guess I can't really complain about you making Acheron 'discovered' rather than 'created' as it is your own addition to the lore, but there certainly isn't any precedent for it. I'll see if I can find specific mention of creation somewhere. Remember that Bhall was not a force for destruction and chaos originally, but for passion and holy fire. Bhall was one of the staunchest fighters against Evil during the godswar. Why would she allow her own creature to slay those of her allies?

- Nemed gave Arawn the precept of Life when he chose to become a man. Thus Arawn was the angel of Life and Death during the godswar. Later, he gave up the precept of Life to Sucellus as a way of reviving him after he was killed by Mulcarn. Arawn is a *neutral* god, not evil and definitely not aligned with Agares. If he created a dragon, it would not have fought against the good dragons during the godswar and would not have aligned itself to the Sheaim during the age of rebirth. This is what I have issue with, rather than the spheres per se.

You have to remember that death itself is a neutral sphere in FFH: 'Necromancy' (the misuse of death magic - Arawn is too apathetic to police it properly) is generally considered evil, but not death itself. Death is beyond good and evil. The race most closely associated with death mana (Sidar) are neutral. The Sheaim are most closely associated with Dimensional mana (Ceridwen), who is also their patron god: thus the natural assumption that Abashi is Ceridwen's dragon.

 

[El_Cid]

Thanks again Blakmane, as you mention outside of the current civilopedia, info is really hard to find unless you were around at the time! I was around and playing FFH2 (but not posting on the forum) from about 4 or 5 patches before the last one, 'o'.

In terms of the chronology i am forced to use the civilopedia in terms of what Angels had become BEFORE the Age of Dragons, and unless the Time of Angels info is incorrect i think it works best to use that as a base for the type of Dragon Weapons that were created later, after the various Angels had changed in 'function'.

I am certainly looking over the current (in first post) situation over which Angel created which Dragon, based on the info you have been giving me, and can see some needed changes, but i also have decided to stick with the details from the 'Time of Angels' in relation to the 'power' each Angel had before creating their Dragon weapon. Unless someone can tell me that the info from the 'Time of Angels' is wrong or came after the 'Age of Dragons'?

The discovery (rather than creation) of Acheron is all my own making, but i like the story of it, i like the purpose it serves in making the in-game Dragon all players see as the most powerful and all the dynamics around that. I like the fact that like Bhall herself that 'fell', Acheron is a primal force in many ways, and as that first Dragon, wild and unpredictable (like fire). He holds no allegiance to any 'side' because of that. As far as he is concerned all other 'created' Dragons are inferior to him and natural enemies. And so far He is not breaking my game

Amathaon as Eurabatres creator and keeping the 'Holy' damage is good. As a god of fertility i wasn't sure about that, so thanks for the more detailed info.

Would Ceridwen have been fighting on the side of 'evil'? If i give her the dragon Abashi would it dealing death damage make sense? If so then that sounds like a good change to make.

EDIT: first post updated.

I would ask if there are any obvious, or not-quite-right (other than Acheron's, he is what he is!) dragons listed as being killed by certain Angels own dragons? I'm not 100% sure on the whole 'vs' aspect in relation to the Godwars and which Angels fought against one another, so if there are any gross errors in the dragon death lists let me know, and what would make better sense etc

 

[Blakmane]

Yes, Ceridwen is definitely 'Evil' (she is the one who planned and instigated the apocalypse, and convinced Agares to fall) and it's fine that her dragon does death damage. A lot of creatures aligned with the hells (wraiths, some demons etc) do death damage.

In terms of the godswar, the lineup was:

On the side of Good:

Amathaon
Sirona
Nantosuelta
Lugus
Junil
Sucellus
Bhall

On the side of Evil:

Ceridwen
Mulcarn
Camulos
Aeron
Mammon
Esus
Agares

On the side of neutrality (technically aligned with the good gods, but did not participate in the war as actively for their own reasons.)

Oghma
Danalin
Dagda
Kilmorph
Tali
Arawn

 

[El_Cid]

Perfect Blakmane, just perfect Ok i will digest all this and what we have been discussing and try to hammer out a final shape for this. Thanks again for the help.

 

[Lplate]

Hi, seeing as your looking at doing a dragon mod, I thought I'd throw out my suggestion for an Acheron event.

Requirements; Acheron is alive, civ has >500 in the bank, has the gold bonus available and has more than one city

"Acheron had heard of your wealth and demands tribute."
Option 1: "Give him what he wants and pray that he leaves."
Half of the civ's gold is removed and one of their tiles has its gold bonus made unavailable for 10 turns.
Acheron gains a (stackable) promotion which gives an extra point of culture to whatever city he's in.
Global message,"Acheron has extorted gold from x."

Option 2:" Drive this beast from our lands."
A new Acheron (with promos and xp) is created just outside one of the player's cities, with the city attack AI and leashed to the city. Original Acheron is removed.

----
A second event is enabled by the first with a time delay.
"Acheron has grown weary and left our lands."
Acheron is moved to a barbarian city, preferably the one with the Dragon's Hoard.

----
If Acheron conquers a city, he gains another (stackable) promotion to boost culture. Global message, "Erebus trembles as Acheron claims another city."
If the Barbarian civ still owns the Dragon's Hoard, it is moved to the conquered city. Acheron's leash is shortened as he settles in his new city.
The first event is reset so that it may occur and the second event won't occur.

---
Another event might have Acheron target a city if it has the Dragon's Hoard building (i.e. they stole it or conquered his city when he was out).

 

[El_Cid]

Hey thanks for that Lplate I hadn't mentioned it previously, but i have been looking at the Event triggering files and wondering 'what if...' and i really like the idea of the wealth trigger attracting Acherons attention.

Hmmm due to Lore constraints i can't create new dragons from an event (we are stuck to the actual Lore dragons we know about, and my games expanded dragon history for those that died during the Dragon Wars era etc), but i can certainly see your suggestion as being a fun mechanism.

I'm not sure yet if i will manage event modding in detail, i sort of follow the basis of the Tweak Mod, to create something that does not massively alter the game that will not fit, and to avoid having to rebuild the main dll file (it's a thing i heard about), just tweaking some of the xml and easier to mod files.

But yeah thanks for that suggestion

I'm currently doing a lot of playtesting from my current changes as listed in this thread so far, and things seem ok so far, but i have lots of testing ahead still.

 

[Lplate]

Hmmm due to Lore constraints i can't create new dragons from an event (we are stuck to the actual Lore dragons we know about, and my games expanded dragon history for those that died during the Dragon Wars era etc), but i can certainly see your suggestion as being a fun mechanism.

I mightn't have been clear, I wasn't suggesting creating any new dragons, just moving Acheron in response to events.
To move him, you create a duplicate where you want him and then kill the original (same way a teleporter would work).