Dramatic Age discussion

[Alexadamz]

Interesting... I still haven't tried the new update, but dramatic ages seem a new mode I will enjoy to play, for the challenge. They could add some of it ideas to the base-RnF game. Keeping normal ages and dedications, just the auto revolt of % of cities for dark ages would be enough to make the original RnF more interesting. Without loyalty pressure from free cities, it would be easier to hold the cities left, and game would be a little more challenging than the original RnF mechanics. I would like that. Maybe from a mod?

 

[James_Champagne]

I'm actually struggling in PRINCE mode of all things... partly because of getting to grips with the new mode, partly because I'm using a civ I've never played as before (Macedon), and also partly because I'm playing against the 2 new civs (and I must say that Gaul seems to be holding their own pretty well... Byzantium, not so much).

 

[bengalryan9]

My worry about dealing with having to capture a bunch of free cities is that a lot of times it seems kind of arbitrary when they get access to stronger units/city defense. You can put a lot of effort towards surrounding a free city and then all of the sudden BOOM, their city defense jumps 20 points.

It's kind of stupid to see a free city that rebelled from a backwards civ lagging in tech all the sudden have access to the most advanced units just because they rebelled.

 

[Jaybe]

My worry about dealing with having to capture a bunch of free cities is that a lot of times it seems kind of arbitrary when they get access to stronger units/city defense. You can put a lot of effort towards surrounding a free city and then all of the sudden BOOM, their city defense jumps 20 points.

It's kind of stupid to see a free city that rebelled from a backwards civ lagging in tech all the sudden have access to the most advanced units just because they rebelled.

How do you think they had a successful rebellion in the first place? It was all that covert assistance so common in today’s world.
I understand your reaction to your unexpected occurrences, and I haven’t been there yet (my Rome was suddenly all alone with a dark age when Classical arrived— I was 1 pt shy), but use your imagination so you can appreciate it, or at least appreciate the irony!

 

[reddishrecue]

Interesting... I still haven't tried the new update, but dramatic ages seem a new mode I will enjoy to play, for the challenge.

Ditto I would like to try out the new things in the expansion but I've just been busy and have had work to do.

 

[pjotroos]

Just finishing a game on Emperor, and the extra score requirements did encourage me to settle couple less cities than usual. Classical through to Renaissance was relatively easy to keep the golden ages rolling, but by the end of Renaissance it was starting to get a bit closer - needed to actively hunt many wonders that didn't really feed into my strategy to get the score. I managed to get just enough on the last turn, but decided to shift + enter instead of claiming the last couple of points to see what will happen. The result was 3 out of 11 cities gone, and they were all fairly logical choices - one remote colony on a smaller landmass, two on the edge of my cluster, some distance away from the capital. It's a fun alternative, but feels somewhat easier than a normal game if you know how to chase the era score - the AI will struggle with keeping their golden ages rolling, and they don't do much to reclaim the lost cities. On top of that, the extra pressure you get from going over the score is a massive boost.

In the classical golden age, I took 3 out of 5 German cities. The three I captured had about the same population combined as Aachen had on its own. When medieval era came, he went into dark age, lost his only other city, and about 15 turns later I eliminated him from the game outright by the loyalty pressure applied to capital. After that, I claimed couple more byzantine cites passively as well, from the dark era flips that normally would be too far to lose loyalty in the first place, and would probably flip back to him if they went into free city state for any other reason.

On the other hand, the Emperor AI doesn't seem to be loosing that many cities. The few that went into the dark age just now had between 5 and 8 (that I could see), and all of them only lost one.

 

[JesseS]

Free cities exerting their own loyalty adds a very interesting (though problematic) dynamic, where you basically have revolutions that can topple entire empires.

In the only game I've played through, I found it easier than before to chain golden ages, and was never in danger of falling into a dark age. Most of the AIs managed to do the same, and the few that did just lost a city or two that they swiftly reclaimed with loyalty. That was a domination victory though, so I finished it in the renaissance era. The threshold for the industrial era was still looking pretty high with only 20 or so turns left.

I saw very different results in an AI-only battle, though, where neighboring Australia and Kongo happened to fall into a dark age at the same time, while war and previous dark ages had already created a couple free cities near their border. The free cities that rebelled exerted their own loyalty pressure and both civs were wiped out via loyalty in a matter of 10-20 turns. This free city bloc then expanded any time the adjacent civs fell into a dark age. Rome and Ethiopia were adjacent to the free city bloc and, though they managed to hold together the core of their empires, they lost close to half of their cities in subsequent dark ages. Because the free cities were pumping out advanced melee units, reinforcing their own loyalty, and had strong defenses, none of the AIs could successfully reconquer them. The AIs did make some attempts to conquer free cities but these were universally unsuccessful. By the end of the game, the free cities were launching the earth satellite and the manhattan project.

It basically becomes a race between whether the free city returns to a civ before a civ's city becomes a free city. Because 2-3 free cities can create a domino effect of sweeping rebellion.

 

[8housesofelixir]

By the end of the game, the free cities were launching the earth satellite and the manhattan project.

That's quite something; they are behaving like they are an independent civ in their own right. Feels like the "barbarians" (means civs cannot reason/communicate with them) of the modern ages (they are being classified as barbs by the game as well).

 

[_hero_]

The biggest change for me is that free cities now exert pressure to other cities to become free cities as well (normal mode does not have this).

Sometimes, with rather dramatic results... look at England here. (Deity AI nonetheless). With a dark age, it is quite possible for an empire to simply implode if the cities that leave the empire are the large size ones.

The irony that Eleanor should get eliminated by loyalty pressure.

 

[Cpt Chaos]

Two random thoughs:

1) Not sure if someone already mentioned it...but beside obvious Georgia, Ottomans seem to be a fun and powerful choice for this mode (you have benefits for cities you don't have found your self and one extra governor to manipulate loyalty, if you should fall in a dark age)

Another huge benefit for the Ottomans is that they can recapture flipped cities without them losing any population. Nobody else will want to do that unless the cities won't flip through loyalty as it will cripple their population. Serasker will also make it much easier to swoop in and grab them. Maybe the tactic is to avoid building any walls as the Ottomans (unless needed to avoid death by AI) so you can just swoop in with cavalry and recapture in one turn.

 

[Pfeffersack]

You might call me...whatever...for having let it come that far

But a warning anyway to save some keyboards out there...if you have built the Gov Plaza in a city, avoid at all costs that it flips independent...

https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...aza-razed-when-city-flips-independent.663235/

 

[Timberdoodle]

I've just finished my first game on deity with the new mode as Gaul. I had golden ages the whole way through, something that I've never been able to do before outside of this mode.

Getting a classical era golden age felt easier, but after expanding early on, staying out of a dark age in the renaissance and industrial eras was a real struggle and earning enough era score became a major focus. It forced me to alter my play style and added tension to the game at a point where I normally would have been able to sit back and relax a bit after settling most of my cities, so that's a big plus for me.

I had fun using the new golden age policy cards. I'm not so sure losing dedications is a strict improvement, but at least it mixes things up. In the base game, I like that dedications force you to make a decision and stick with it for a whole era. In picking one option, you lose out on the other options. They are a nice middle ground between Civ 5's social policies, that are fixed for the whole game once picked, and the flexibility of Civ 6's policy system.

I've yet to experience a dark age in the new game mode though, so I'll need to get a better feel for those before I comment. Overall I had fun with it though, and I'll definitely keep it on for my next couple of games!

 

[kotpeter]

I've just finished my first game on deity with the new mode as Gaul. I had golden ages the whole way through, something that I've never been able to do before outside of this mode.

Getting a classical era golden age felt easier, but after expanding early on, staying out of a dark age in the renaissance and industrial eras was a real struggle and earning enough era score became a major focus. It forced me to alter my play style and added tension to the game at a point where I normally would have been able to sit back and relax a bit after settling most of my cities, so that's a big plus for me.

I had fun using the new golden age policy cards. I'm not so sure losing dedications is a strict improvement, but at least it mixes things up. In the base game, I like that dedications force you to make a decision and stick with it for a whole era. In picking one option, you lose out on the other options. They are a nice middle ground between Civ 5's social policies, that are fixed for the whole game once picked, and the flexibility of Civ 6's policy system.

I've yet to experience a dark age in the new game mode though, so I'll need to get a better feel for those before I comment. Overall I had fun with it though, and I'll definitely keep it on for my next couple of games!

Have you played on Deity?

I just finished my first DA game playing as Kongo. I had to get a classical dark age to avoid it in future eras, and still I was barely able to avoid them. Also, I played 4 cities only to reduce era score thresholds.

In the end, I won science victory, though the AI got somewhat close. Grabbing certain great people was essential for victory.

 

[Timberdoodle]

Have you played on Deity?

I just finished my first DA game playing as Kongo. I had to get a classical dark age to avoid it in future eras, and still I was barely able to avoid them. Also, I played 4 cities only to reduce era score thresholds.

In the end, I won science victory, though the AI got somewhat close. Grabbing certain great people was essential for victory.

Sounds well earned! Good work on the Deity victory! I'll have to play a tall game and see how it feels.

Yeah, my game was on Deity too. Science victory on a small map around turn 250, standard speed. Playing as Gaul helped a ton though, with Gaul's culture bonuses helping to get more era score through Civic unlocks without really investing in culture (while I spammed campuses for science mid game). I don't think I would of faired nearly as well otherwise.

I had an early war in the classical using Gaul's UU where I took a few cities from the Khmer, including their capital. From the medieval era onwards I was at 12 cities, and it was a real struggle not to fall into a dark age after that. I was also lucky to grab a late Terracotta mid game and use the free promo's on my warrior horde for more era score, even then it was down to the wire!

 

[Bosque]

In my Dramatic Ages game as Byzantium, I had one Dark Age, while all the rest were golden, with era scores well above the threshold.
And though I lost three cities in that one Dark Age, the tagmas made it easy to capture them all back, along with other cities the AI civs had lost.

 

[Feanor_]

I hate it. Hate it hate it hate it. Having no Normal age is just stupid and it's ridiculous that you can basically losing a game because you're short on one era score between Dark and Golden.

I'd pretty much cracked the game on Immortal - but as far as I can see this stupid Dramatic Ages mode has changed the era score mechanics too. The trouble is that I can't find anything to confirm that or explain it. In the game I'm playing now as Byzantium I realised 10 turns or more before the end of the Classical era that I didn't have enough score so I cranked everything up to the max to win era score: completing techs and civics I wanted to leave until I got the boost, rush building a Government Plaza so I could use it to get +3 adjacency for a Campus that's also next to two Mountains.

Everything was nearly upset by the Kongolese declaring a surprise war on me especially as I absolutely had to complete that Campus so couldn't switch the city to unit production. The district was set to complete at the same time the Era finished but it didn't count to my Era Score so I figured it needs to finish a turn earlier - I loaded the autosave from the previous turn, chopped the wood I had a builder waiting on for exactly this purpose - and no era score!!

What's absolutely infuriating is that I was fighting off the Kongolese quite nicely but as soon as I drop into a Dark Age my front line city with Victor in it rebels. I honestly don't think they've given enough thought to this new mechanic, explained properly how the mechanic to earn Era score has changed or tested it properly.

The one thing I do quite like is the policy cards because I can switch between Golden Age benefits as they're needed - for example I can Faith purchase a settler then switch to a card that earns Science, or whatever.

EDIT: So I managed to turn the situation to my advantage - I pulled back my units, allowed Kongo to damage the city, let it rebel, let the independent units and Kongo fight, and came back in to retake the city. Kongo also fell into a Dark Age massively weakening him and allowing me to capture his city.
But then the Medieval Era ended and I still didn't earn enough Era Score and two of my cities rebelled. I think I can recapture them but a Holy Site was about to be completed in one, which means a load of lost production. This is all just losing me too much ground against the leading AIs at a stage when I should be beginning to catch them up. I really need to understand what events now earn Era Score since they've changed it so much.

 

[Pistol90]

As for soo many things, walls being overpowered destroys this mod. AI is not capable capturing free cities because walls are sooooo overpowered, and than they ended up staying free cities forever. I use mod that decreases walls strenght, which really helps. And having no normal age is stupid.

 

[Pietato]

So does Eleanor have any real benefits in this mode? Does she instantly take free cities if they have negative loyalty, and she is exerting the most pressure on them?

Vampires might also be a good choice, as I believe free city units are not counted as barbs.

 

[wesplaysciv]

Question: if you are about to fall into a dark age, what should you do to prepare? I'd think you need to move all units out of your far-flung cities, or they get lost, is that right? And have extra military around ready to take it back? Is the strength of the city something standardized like CS or based on your own civ?

For what it's worth I am enjoying this mode so far. I like that it creates more flexibility from a domination perspective (you can pick off weak cities or even clusters of weak cities without war) and made me more picky on which cities to keep (though I'm not sure if that's the right strategy, or to just keep more cities and then potentially lose them)

 

[Apocrypha]

Question: if you are about to fall into a dark age, what should you do to prepare? I'd think you need to move all units out of your far-flung cities, or they get lost, is that right? And have extra military around ready to take it back? Is the strength of the city something standardized like CS or based on your own civ?

For what it's worth I am enjoying this mode so far. I like that it creates more flexibility from a domination perspective (you can pick off weak cities or even clusters of weak cities without war) and made me more picky on which cities to keep (though I'm not sure if that's the right strategy, or to just keep more cities and then potentially lose them)

I thought I was headed for a medieval dark age in my game, so I moved my governors around to influence which cities would flip.

Ease of recapture was the deciding factor - preferred a low pop city on floodplains inside my empire vs an exterior city surrounded by mountains and hills or any big city